Line length vs wind range...

[mikewang]

Why the hell am I asking this. ANYTHING BUT STUDYING ACCOUNTING!!!

So yea, lengthen your lines for more power, shorten your lines for less power.

Is this because there is more wind further above ground level, and less wind near ground level?

Anybody ever try 7m lines or 14m lines?

[Dub]

17m is the shortest I've tried but check this out.

http://www.kiteforum.tv/video/Kiteloops ... lines.html

[Peter_Frank]

Why the hell am I asking this. ANYTHING BUT STUDYING ACCOUNTING!!!

So yea, lengthen your lines for more power, shorten your lines for less power.

Is this because there is more wind further above ground level, and less wind near ground level?

Anybody ever try 7m lines or 14m lines?

It doesnt work like that...

The wind is approximately the same no matter what height (apart from close to the sea surface).

If you lengthen your lines, you will be able to FLY more speed in the kite without loss of power, thus you get more power for light wind.
When you park the kite, it has the same power as with shorter lines.

SO, you get a much bigger windrange with longer lines, thats a fact.

And you wont obtain less power with the shorter lines


BUT, because you can control the kite power much faster by reaching the edge of the window quicker with shorter lines, you will definitely be able to kite in more wind, and still feel it is easy and under control

Above is why the shorter lines helps a lot (and can be more fun for kiteloops and waves), as you have the very same power when going straight, no matter what line length - but when you fly the kite around or turn, you can take the power "out" faster

Peter

[jedi1]

Why the hell am I asking this. ANYTHING BUT STUDYING ACCOUNTING!!!

So yea, lengthen your lines for more power, shorten your lines for less power.

Is this because there is more wind further above ground level, and less wind near ground level?

Anybody ever try 7m lines or 14m lines?

It doesnt work like that...

The wind is approximately the same no matter what height (apart from close to the sea surface).

If you lengthen your lines, you will be able to FLY more speed in the kite without loss of power, thus you get more power for light wind.
When you park the kite, it has the same power as with shorter lines.

SO, you get a much bigger windrange with longer lines, thats a fact.

And you wont obtain less power with the shorter lines


BUT, because you can control the kite power much faster by reaching the edge of the window quicker with shorter lines, you will definitely be able to kite in more wind, and still feel it is easy and under control

Above is why the shorter lines helps a lot (and can be more fun for kiteloops and waves), as you have the very same power when going straight, no matter what line length - but when you fly the kite around or turn, you can take the power "out" faster

Peter

Contradict your post with this article http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/Lightwind-Info

[Peter_Frank]

Well, not really.

One can always fly the kite lower, if long lines - but you can never fly it higher, with shorter lines.

But to take the example from your link, one can calculate quite easy, having :

1. "Line" length from sea level to kite power 27m @ 60 degree angle. Height over water = 23,4m

2. "Line" length from sea level to kite power 22m @ 60 degree angle. Height over water = 19,1m

Above is very typical, if you got say 17m versus 22 meter lines, and there is typically 3-5 meter to the power center of the kite (bridles + tip to powercenter), and leader lines at the bar + the rider height.


So from the graph the wind is

1. 19,5 knots @ 22m lines

2. 18,9 knots @ 17m lines

So the wind difference is only 3,2% which equals 6,5% in terms of power (squared).

If you took a 12m2 kite instead of a 9m2, that would equal a power difference of 33% !

Which is way more difference than the 5m longer lines, that only gave you 6,5% more power.

So you COULD say, that going from 17 to 22m line length, you would only increase the kite power by 1/5 of a kite size jump (or 1/3 if only jumping from 10 to 12m2), which is really not much, right ?

But as the feel and way you can cut power away fast is much more important, the 17 to 22m difference will feel like a lot more, in powered conditions

And reversed, you can FLY much more power with the 22m than the 17m lines, in the lowend.


So the wind gradient important in itself ? Naaa, not IMO.

Peter

[mikewang]

OH yea...thanks that's cool. I'm gonna try 14m lines on my 9m smoke.

Btw, would 14m lines generate less pop than 20m lines?

[Busdriver]

Bit of a thread drift I don't agree in the Best article about never get a bar with 20m lines without extensions. I had a 23m line bar that came stock with my 6 and 8 and cut the lines down to 20m and for me it was a huge improvement. The kite was much more reactive. 20m for me is the sweet spot for 8m and smaller for waves. I've read anything smaller will tend to pull you off the wave. 23m works well for my 12. Charlie

[RichardM]

Why the hell am I asking this. ANYTHING BUT STUDYING ACCOUNTING!!!

So yea, lengthen your lines for more power, shorten your lines for less power.

Is this because there is more wind further above ground level, and less wind near ground level?

Anybody ever try 7m lines or 14m lines?

It doesnt work like that...

The wind is approximately the same no matter what height (apart from close to the sea surface).

If you lengthen your lines, you will be able to FLY more speed in the kite without loss of power, thus you get more power for light wind.
When you park the kite, it has the same power as with shorter lines.

SO, you get a much bigger windrange with longer lines, thats a fact.

And you wont obtain less power with the shorter lines


BUT, because you can control the kite power much faster by reaching the edge of the window quicker with shorter lines, you will definitely be able to kite in more wind, and still feel it is easy and under control

Above is why the shorter lines helps a lot (and can be more fun for kiteloops and waves), as you have the very same power when going straight, no matter what line length - but when you fly the kite around or turn, you can take the power "out" faster

Peter

I think Peter is closer to the truth than the Best blurb.

1. Although it is possible for the wind to be somewhat different (if so, PROBABLY stronger) 20-30M up, I suspect that it is usually the same as near the surface and that this would especially be the case on water. It seems extremely unlikely that there is a relatively reliable AND measurable “gradient” as the Best blurb states.

Therefore, it is probably true that the kite has virtually the same power when parked regardless of the length of lines. I doubt that the small angle of attack difference which MIGHT occur would be noticeable. One reason is that longer lines will have more slack and stretch – which also accounts for the slower turning.

2. It may also be true that being able to reach the edge faster with shorter lines adds a certain amount of control. However, I don’t think that this is the main reason that shorter lines SEEM to give more control for SOME people.

3. I think the reason shorter lines produce the faster turning and responsiveness which SOME people find increases their control is because the steering lines have much more (and more consistent) tension due to less slack and stretch. It should be noted however, that a kite that zips around might not seem as controllable to SOME people as a kite which moves more sedately and thereby tends to produce a steadier pull.

4. When I started, 30M was the norm and I (and some other fatsos) actually used 40M. The main reason longer lines develop more power is because they enable much larger power strokes when working the kite. Although it’s likely that the bulk of the extra power results from the much greater time moving through the window, I suspect that there might also be an additional power gain because the kite may also use this time to pick up extra speed and thereby create additional apparent wind.

It should be noted that this effect can create more danger if the kite gets out of control.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

[Muri]

Ahoy
Why then the racers are always increasing there line length. So IKA had to put a rule to it. No more than 45 Mts. ??
I love this discussion and would like to hear more opinions.
Now.
I have a 14 Mts2 (line length 27 Mts) kite that works well in 11 kts, but I would love to kite in 9 – 10 kts, (putting aside board and all), I have to options, line extension to get to 10kts, or a brand new 17 Mts kite.
If extension gives me 1 knot, I think the investment is a good one. I am Ok ?? Or do I have something off?. ( 8 mts extra sounds right)

Thanks in advance, Muri.

[RichardM]

Ahoy
Why then the racers are always increasing there line length. So IKA had to put a rule to it. No more than 45 Mts. ??
I love this discussion and would like to hear more opinions.
Now.
I have a 14 Mts2 (line length 27 Mts) kite that works well in 11 kts, but I would love to kite in 9 – 10 kts, (putting aside board and all), I have to options, line extension to get to 10kts, or a brand new 17 Mts kite.
If extension gives me 1 knot, I think the investment is a good one. I am Ok ?? Or do I have something off?. ( 8 mts extra sounds right)

Thanks in advance, Muri.

Obviously, even if there was only a 1 in 10 chance that adding the extra length would solve your problem, it would be by far better than then the cost, risk and time involved in changing kites.

I personally think it is very likely to give you what you want.

However, some of the downsides to longer lines include: (there might also be others)

1. Slower turning.
2. Need a bigger launch/land area.
3. More difficult relaunch due to more slack line and use in lighter wind.
4. More aggravation if lines get spagettied.
5. Possible annoyed looks from other kiters who misjudge your kite's movements.
6. Depending on your bar, may require specialized technique which doesn't overfill the bar ends when wrapping up lines.
7. Likely more dangerous if out of control.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET