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2 line kites and waves?

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wave***
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2 line kites and waves?

Postby wave*** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:36 am

OK, so there are a few wave kiters out there flying small 4 line C-kites kites on fixed bars with surfboards. Some on this forum claims that there is no other way to kite in surf. I may or may not agree - it doesn't matter.

This style of kiting does make me think about the good old days of 2 line kites. Simple and safe, with a ton of grunt for the size. If you're flying a 7M fixed 4 line kite, why wouldn't a 2 line kite work? I think it's probably been about 5 or 6 years since anyone produced a 2 line kite. With all of the developments in kite technology since then, I'm guessing that a very solid 2 line with the speed and performance of a fixed 4 line can be produced. I'd buy a modern 2 liner in a heartbeat. Anyone else?

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Postby BullsShit.com » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:49 am

If you have perfect conditions and steady wind, sure a 2 liner will work.
The guys with their fixed setup use small kites and big boards.
As soon as it get super windy and gusty, they get screwed.

Why go back to crap if you can use more advanced stuff.

And 2 line kites where not safe by the way!

Also, I am sure a 1 line kite will work, as long it's freaking windy!
That makes me wonder: did anyone ever take out a kids toy kite and go kiteboard with it?

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Postby ronnie » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:22 am

If you use a 2-line with a surefire spreader bar, what is not safe?

If you are riding waves unhooked, you let go of the bar, the bar slides up one of the lines until you have total depower (More than a bow kite).
It has only slid the length of the kite, so you can pull back to the bar and let the line slide through it again and you are good to go. They relaunch really well.
If you are hooked in, let go of the bar and hit the release lever on your spreader bar.
Sounds practical to me, if the wind is fairly steady.

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Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:32 pm

Except for a very very small "user fraction", and the idea not being that useable - the idea is a bit challenging/interesting !

How to make a kite that turns well, on 2 lines (so no center line to get in the way, or pulley bar systems or anything - just two lines), and with power adjustment made "at the kite with trim/knots" before going out ?

Maybe you can take a 4 line C kite or SLE kite, and simply connect the front and rear lines a bit down (and adjust the power on knots this way), and thats it ?

Without making a brand new kite.
OR, if you should make a kite specific for this purpose - would it be a normal kite, just with a bit different connection points ?

Or in its "perfect" sense - how to make a two lined kite that turns well with a short bar, with as few lines as possible at the kite ? (no bridles, no crossover lines)
Maybe only one series of connection points at each side, so can be moved forward/rearward for trim - but still only one connection point when flying.
I dont think it is easy, as you use the rear lines to turn the kite :roll:

Kindly, Peter Frank

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Postby wave*** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:27 pm

Peter - the old 2 line kites have a bridle similar to the bridles on newer bow kites. I pulled a 5M Wipika Classic out of the pile of dead kite gear in my garage recently and was surprised at how well it handled. I also occiasionally fly 4 line C-kites on a pully bar. Also, conditions don't have to be perfect. With advances in boards, harnesses and rider skill (even I'm a way better kiter than I was 7 years ago!), kiters can handle much gustier conditions with fixed line kites than you might realize. Maui and Ohau tend to be pretty gusty, yet there's a pretty hardcore crew riding Generators, Fuels and Torches on pully bars.

As for safety, I don't see how you can get much safer than 2 lines. It's nearly impossible to rig 2 lines incorrectly, even if you do rig backwards, just flip the bar over and go. When unhooked all you have to do is let go of the bar and the kite is killed; when hooked in, it's simple enough to pull the safety on the harness loop or use a surefire spreader. Also, you can put about 10 loops in the lines without affecting the kites performance. My old 2 line bar has a swivel bearing on the harness loop, so a simple spin of the bar takes out all of the twists. On a 4 or 5 line bar, you can take the twists out of the back lines, but the front lines stay twisted until you spin the the reverse direction

Applying some of the R&D knowledge the manufacturers have picked up over the years, I can see a very high performance 2 line kite working in a lot of conditions. Waves being of most interest to me, but what about the rad wake-style riders? A fast looping machine with "rip you off the water" jumps and 100% depower when you wipe out seems pretty ideal.

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Postby Mash-denmark » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:26 pm

A good performing 2 line kite would be brilliant! You can crash the kite as much as you want to, and all you have to do is relaunching the kite. Inverting and rolling around in the waves is no problem.

But would be easy to make a 2 line kite which relaunches easy?

THis can be big, if its possible!

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Postby PAFF » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:41 am

Well first off the 2 lines i used to use, Wipika classic and Naish AR3 etc. where slow.. Compared to today's 6m Torch-Generator 5.5 etc..

It have to be between 5-7 m2 and lightning fast, and only half the pull/bottom that the old ones had.

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Postby suRff » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:44 am

cool idea! i was sort of thinking about this a while back when i was reading all the stuff about fixed pulley-bars in the surf,, but had not really thought it all through. true enough, the simpler the better. we all know that. interesting thought that you could crash/roll the kite all you want,, it should eventually pop back up (assuming no valve leak or tear)!

i remember a vid with the lead naish kite designer talking about line drag and how dramatic its affect was on the kite.. dropping down to two line would reduce quite a bit of drag,, speed up the kite,, and allow for (a bit) smaller sizes.. should also be cheaper to produce and maybe fly farther forward in the window?

flagging out to one line,, and letting the bar ride up 5-8 meters or so offers all the safety of any current kite (probably less kite spinning on the way down).. plus the re-rig to ride is a matter of getting the bar back and off you go. kite would also fair better in the surf when flagging to one line like that on a bad crash. it could tangle.. but the chances it does are lower than with a more complicated four line system.

i have not flown a two liner. wondering if you can design the kite stable enough relative to modern small Cs. lacking 'traditional' depower this kite could be more dangerous in the wrong hands.

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Postby ronnie » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:57 am

If I remember right the old measurements in the days of 2-line kites were of projected area of a kite.
Today they measure the flat area when flattened out, which means a 2-line 4m was more equivalent to a 6m c-kite of today?

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Postby loco4viento » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:59 am

Great topic! I like the fact that so much can be done on early "primitive" stuff. Some of the things I saw in the early 2 line days stilll impress me....Flash, Lou, Elliot, Manu, Mauricio...very cool seeing people do things others never thought possible. I like the simplicity of 2 line kites and also the beauty of a 2 line nonrelaunchable bridled open cell foil...not because they outperform other kites but because they are so very basic and still allow me to have so much fun (but I still mostly fly more complicated kites).

John


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