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Kite design...mmm...

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Oooops
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Kite design...mmm...

Postby Oooops » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:38 am

OK.... I'm open minded but I'm starting to get a bit skeptical about this whole kite design thing....On the one hand we have a kite shaped like a bat on offer, then a sea gull shaped SIGMA, followed by a host of other designs ranging from "ultra flat" to C shaped, to a flying sleeping bag. The thing that puzzles me is that most descriptions of product boil down to the same thing (low bottom end, HUGE depower and range, mega boost & hangtime, awesome "unhooked", bla bla bla.... :D :o. Makes one think that a kite shaped like a stop sign will have just as much credibility :roll: Perhaps I have it all wrong....Please explain.

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Re: Kite design

Postby voodoospirit » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:56 am

audi, renault,peugeot,mazda,mercedes,ferrari,aixam, etc...

all different shapes but all r used on roads, 4 wheels and a motor... same purpose, driving...
now some brands have specificities that other brands don t have.. carbon brakes and so on, same for kites.

-peter lynn have the autozenith feature that no other brands have.
-flysurfers can be relaunched in 6knots, reverse launched, self launched, 40000 bridles and so on.
-LEI r fighting in the pseudo revolution depatrment with massive marketing, my kite is better than yours.
-bow kites have the best depower.

everything is a matter of taste, choice and money, just like cars.

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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby Oooops » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:54 pm

Thanks for that. I catch your drift, but I guess the problem I'm having is that some kites that are drastically different in shape (i.e. the "ultra-flat" vs. the "C" shape vs. the sleeping bag are quite different from the bird shaped kites like the bat (sort of like an bird, I think it flaps its wings :D ) or the sea gull and yet the flying characteristics in many cases are are marketed as the same :o . How can this be? I'm not an engineer, but surely one can tell a bird or bat from a sleeping bag and not conclude that they will offer the same benefits once sky born...? Some subtle differences are highlighted in the marketing hype but many of the more (mass market) desirable aspects are pushed to the forefront. Did I mention turning? They all turn fast too.

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Brent4336
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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby Brent4336 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:25 pm

Lei's made a big jump with the intro of bridles, though a few don't like the change in handling.

Now their into differentiation and trying to find the next big advance. Most of it's gimmick and marketing. In the end simplicity will win out. Lou once again seems a bit ahead of the curve. Three struts, ultra simple bridle, simple bar. I gotta try one of those rabbits!

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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby BullsShit.com » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:27 pm

I see what you mean and I agree 100%
What's the deal with all that.
Sure all have their pros and cons, but obviously all have only their pros listed.
What I see is : You need a different kite shape for each wind, location, waves, flat and so on.
Which is total BS.
If there would be a perfect design and shape, all would be the same.
Since there is not, we have all kinds of shapes.
PS: what the hell is the DELTA all about?
What seems to be the best is the Hybrid shape. It just works all around.
I love the fact that there are experiments out there, what I don't like is their claim of being "the" best ever.
If it is, why aren't all kites shaped the same?
But again, keep the odd stuff coming,... eventually we will find "THE" perfect shape.

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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby aeberl » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:14 pm

Keep in mind that there are other factors that come into play:
Manufacturing: I am convinced that the Sigma/Geo concept of Naish's new kite series has been developed in order to reduce the maufacturing effort rather than aiming at refined flying performance. Actually these kites don't fly dramtically different to other equivalent kites available today.
Marketing: Here we could write entire books. Brands like Flysurfer an PL have a managed to create a market for themselves that would be lost if they came out with a LEI. Their reluctance to try other concepts is among other things nothing but the protection of the captive market sement they have conquered (so they will be selling sleepingbags for quite a while, for now that market is large enough for those two; who knows, it may grow and allow for more players in the future). Remember the CO2 and Nitro from Cabrinha? Cabrinha has lost a lot of market share after dumping their very well known C kites. Naish and Sligshot stayed with their C's quite successfully (Fuel and Torch) after Cabrinha has (in my opinion) missread the market requirements for freestyle kites. Brands like Best and Liquid Force are carefull not to do anything too revolutionary in order to stay mainstream and offer products to a brader market segment. After Best's Smellfish/Ezel adventure they will be more carefull trying to think and acto outside the box. I must admit however that their ideas were very interesting, things like bladerless LEI's and new materials shoud be persued more intensively. I heared that Cuben has been accured by North Sails, I hope they are able to further develop this material for the kiting world. OR on the other hand is introducing new (and prooven technology) to an allready well performing platform without upsetting traditional customers (smart!). Brands like WindWing and others are trying revolutionary changes just to keep their names in the headlines, it remains to be seen if this strategy actually translates to sales and growth and if they will proove to be among the mayor players in the long haul.
Independent R&D: People like Bill Hansen make significant contributions introducing new concepts in kite design without any affiliation to mayor brands. I hope there are more guys like him out there pushing the envalope. He developed the WW Rap II, which in my opinion was a step ahead from all other designs at the moment, in spite of the minor problems that design had. But I am sure we will see some of his ideas in future kites (ultra high projected area delta kites) Lou Weihmann is working in that direction as well (or at least it looks like it).
Conclusion: many different kites for many different reasons, thats what makes this world so interesing, just keep your eyes, ears and above all your mind open and try out all you can.

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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby panchito » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:51 pm

Oooops wrote:OK.... I'm open minded but I'm starting to get a bit skeptical about this whole kite design thing....On the one hand we have a kite shaped like a bat on offer, then a sea gull shaped SIGMA, followed by a host of other designs ranging from "ultra flat" to C shaped, to a flying sleeping bag. The thing that puzzles me is that most descriptions of product boil down to the same thing (low bottom end, HUGE depower and range, mega boost & hangtime, awesome "unhooked", bla bla bla.... :D :o. Makes one think that a kite shaped like a stop sign will have just as much credibility :roll: Perhaps I have it all wrong....Please explain.


Stick with the material you like .... I ride 2007 material and have several friends with 2005/2006 kites and they ( we ) all are happy kiters .

Saludos

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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby scklandl » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:13 am

heres the one that bothers me.

I just saw a review of wainman HI rabbit that says its an awesome kite for wakestyle AND waveriding

WTF?!?!?

wake style: superstable kite, stays put in the window., generates maximum snatch. doesnt move unless you ask it too

waves: kite that redirects itself with the slightest twist of a wrist, can easily be sent forward or backwards in the window depending on edge pressure. generates little pop.

these are probably the most dramatic differences in any riding style and should be the farthestr hing from the same kite

the only thing I can see that lends them to being grouped together is the fact that both style s of riding require a kite that can sit deep in the window and behave, but thats about where they stop.

a kite that doesnt behave like an idiot when unhooked doesnt make it an appropriate kite for both disciplines

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Re: Kite design...mmm...

Postby noel » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:06 am

Your only talking about one style of wave rideing. If you want to stay hooked in and ride the waves powered like 90% of the population out there, than you are correct. To me that's kiteboarding and it really doesn't matter what kind of board you ride. (ie...surfboard or twintip) But, if you want to kitesurf,(imho) what you want is a kite that sits deep in the pocket and doesn't move much at all, like a wakestyle kite, so as you can unhook and actually surf the wave like riders such as Ben Wilson, Jason Slezak, Davey Blair, and Lou Wainman. To me, this is the true definition of kitesurfing.

scklandl wrote:heres the one that bothers me.

I just saw a review of wainman HI rabbit that says its an awesome kite for wakestyle AND waveriding

WTF?!?!?

wake style: superstable kite, stays put in the window., generates maximum snatch. doesnt move unless you ask it too

waves: kite that redirects itself with the slightest twist of a wrist, can easily be sent forward or backwards in the window depending on edge pressure. generates little pop.

these are probably the most dramatic differences in any riding style and should be the farthestr hing from the same kite

the only thing I can see that lends them to being grouped together is the fact that both style s of riding require a kite that can sit deep in the window and behave, but thats about where they stop.

a kite that doesnt behave like an idiot when unhooked doesnt make it an appropriate kite for both disciplines


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