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 Post subject: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:46 pm 
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One question here:

When downlooping from toeside and back in a carve, which hand do you use ?

Not talking about windy conditions (10 knots and up) where everything is easy, but in light wind, 5-8 knots where you have to ride toeside quite hard upwind, in order to be able to carve back without loosening the tension on the lines, and without stalling the hydrofoil.

Turning the kite "up" from a lower position to carve back, is easy and natural (at least for me), because you ride with your upper leeside hand on the bar, so you just pull it around, easy peasy :thumb:

When you want to downloop the kite, you typically fly it up higher first of course.

And THEN what ?

I sometimes put my upper hand down on the wrong side of the bar, and pull - as if I were to use my "counterweight" hand which is to windward, I would have to twist my body so much (and I am NOT very flexible mind you), that I will miss the upwind stance/course, and it feels wrong and awkward, not natural :roll:

So reaching over the board to grab the bar and downloop, is really difficult for me :(

Does anyone understand what I mean, or ???

How do you do this when carving or riding waves in light wind, when downlooping ?

Or are you all contortionists unlike me, and easy for you ? :rollgrin:

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:42 pm 
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Location: S.P.I. TX. / Canon City Co.
when toeside riding right foot forward my right hand is above the center hole but kinda close to the center, I find I can hold the bar in position power - wise and push kinda leveraging the bar against the chicken loop rope for a downloop, I also dont really find it too hard to reach across with my left hand and pull the lower part of the bar. ( wonder if any of that makes sense to anyone but me? )
I seldom switch stance when wave riding a surfboard unless I really need to make upwind so I'm used to working the kite from toeside.
Just another rookie observation.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:31 am 
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Denisesewa wrote:
when toeside riding right foot forward my right hand is above the center hole but kinda close to the center, I find I can hold the bar in position power - wise and push kinda leveraging the bar against the chicken loop rope for a downloop, I also dont really find it too hard to reach across with my left hand and pull the lower part of the bar. ( wonder if any of that makes sense to anyone but me? )
I seldom switch stance when wave riding a surfboard unless I really need to make upwind so I'm used to working the kite from toeside.
Just another rookie observation.


Very precisely put and easy to understand, makes sense.

Not sure whether you are talking downlooping when on a surfboard, or on a hydrofoil ?
These are two completely opposite creatures :naughty:

On a waveboard it is easy, also for me, to reach over and downloop smoothly if carving back, no biggie :thumb:

But there is a huge catch when on a hydrofoilboard in light winds - which makes it really difficult, at least for me:

When you ride toeside with 15-18m2 kites, maybe foil kites, you have to ride as far upwind as possible, and the kite fully sheeted out against the stopper often.

Easy to ride like this with your upper hand on the bar, and as you say, a bit closer to the center maybe, and you can steer/turn the kite easy :rollgrin:

BUT, there is a catch compared to more wind or waveboards, as if you have to downloop these sizes, and bar sheeted far out - you need a firm grip far on the downside of the bar of course, one handed steering is not sufficient.

As you keep the speed down, and course high, toeside - you (I at least) counterbalance with my windward hand.
If I reach over (a LOT, remember the bar is sheeted far out, and has to be during the downloop also, for speed, as you ride towards the kite), my body will turn the board at a lower course, it will accelerate, and the fluid coordinated carve back will be ruined, and you can not time the carve very well, f.ex when hitting a wave.

So I find it better to let go of the bar, and grab the downside with the "wrong" hand, as this will make it possible to pull hard, and still be able to sheet out - and you DONT ruin the initiation of the carve.

But holding the bar cross with one hand, is also a bit odd - and if you crash you might forget what you were doing ha haa :naughty:

So neither of these methods works well :roll:
When going into the turn, downlooping is easy - it is the turn back that is a problem for me if it has to be a downloop....

Okay - nough of me - how do you do it ?

In more wind, you can actually ride downwind, carve, carve back downlooping easy as you dont have your back towards the kite toeside now - so you can do this without having to go upwind, as the kite will drift/turn easy here when more wind - this is not possible in marginal winds.

Do others understand what I am talking about here ?

8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:18 am 
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Peter_Frank wrote:

Do others understand what I am talking about here ?

8) PF


Is the issue being able to get enough power/control on the thumb side of the bar to do the downloop?

Maybe go underhand so the grip is reversed and twisted, so you can press with your thumb, but that requires knowing in advance that you are going to downloop?


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:22 pm 
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ronnie wrote:
Peter_Frank wrote:

Do others understand what I am talking about here ?

8) PF


Is the issue being able to get enough power/control on the thumb side of the bar to do the downloop?

Maybe go underhand so the grip is reversed and twisted, so you can press with your thumb, but that requires knowing in advance that you are going to downloop?


Nope, it is not the issue (you can not downloop an 18m2 foil kite this way btw).

It about when riding toeside twisting your body max upwind in marginal winds, and you want to downloop the kite for the return carve - HOW this is done by others, without losing the flow ?
Gripping over the board and reaching out for the bar far away while releasing with your upper hand maybe, or gripping on the opposite lower side of the bar with your upper hand, or ????

One will only understand the problems involved, if doing it regularly :thumb:

I thought this was an issue (read: problem for many) for all hydrofoilers actually :roll:

Maybe just me who is not sufficiently flexible :cry:

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Hi PF,

Good post. I know exactly what you mean and am struggling with exact problem in light wind.

I've noticed that when toeside on the hydrofoil, I'm definitely not making as much ground upwind as I can on a surfboard in the same situation (toeside). Combined with the fact I'm not able (yet) to carve the foil as confidently as I would like, my turn downwind has quite a large radius. As I fly my kite thru 12 and carve downwind, I often lose all line tension and the kite stalls. I'm flying foil kites too and so they turn relatively slowly at the best of times.

One thing riding a surfboard in waves taught me is to always turn the kite first, then follow with the board. This is true for conventional turns and down loops, especially when riding a wave down the line. A hard carve slows the board and allows you to keep line tension. On a big enough wave, it's super easy to drop a kite thru lack of line tension if you are moving toward it fast enough.

I'm guessing that with practice, I'll be able to do the same thing on the hydrofoil.

For my down loops, I'm currently swapping my steering hand to the other side (front) of the bar and down looping the kite that way (one handed). My windward hand is keeping balance as you describe, and this helps me keep my proper stance. Once the loop is complete, and the board has turned, you have that moment where you can unspin the bar "hands free" and catch it with both hands. This seems to be working ok.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:24 pm 
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A sliding c loop attachment system helps a lot when toe side making pulling for a down loop much better I think!
BTW, I ALWAYS down loop in lite wind and up kite turns getting super rare in any wind as down loops during a jibe on a KBHF just works!
When one gets the timing spot on what a great feeling!
You can also try making your c loop throw shorter.
As I just think about this I am sure I pull the bar in with my left hand when toeside regular then grab quickly with the right to pull for the down loop, makes the reach less.
Nice topic!
R H


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:30 pm 
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revhed wrote:
As I just think about this I am sure I pull the bar in with my left hand when toeside regular then grab quickly with the right to pull for the down loop, makes the reach less.
R H

The guy in the video is showing this at 1:28 and 1:35?
Looks like lighter wind to me, but not as easy with a foil kite?



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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:43 pm 
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On this above video (1.29) You see him drive the foilboard into the carving before he is steering the kite into the loop. On a Waveboard You follow the Kite - thats a big difference in timing.

Using really large Kites on much more marginal windconditions like the 21FS Speed4 it is simply not possible to downloop only by dragging on the bar. You have to catch the steeringline and draw much harder than it would be possible only with the bar to get into looping with this "Hindenburg". Still then it is much slower reacting and so You have to downloop earlier than on this Vid to hold tension in Your lines through the carving - and Your carving must be much tighter than in normal WindCond.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you guys/girls downloop ?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:22 am 
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Good vid Heimo - I can see how the carve first works in that instance keeping the lines tight. I'll give that a crack, although I wonder whether that'll leave me enough time to get an S415 turned in time. (I also grab a handful of steering line in LW as opposed to using the bar. )


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