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Foiling with big kites

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Kite Rider
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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby Kite Rider » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:19 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Hawaiis wrote:To foil in lightest wind possible, one needs both a big kite and big fins, the race style wings require more speed to plane, they are designed for high speed. Not for light wind.
You might be right - but are you sure ?

The race wings go much faster, which equals more apparent wind, which equals much better low wind performance.
From my own experience, I'd tend to agree with Hawaiis.

I have tried the Zeeko Makaira race wing and the freeride wing back to back one day last week. My initial impression is that the freeride wing has so much lift that it got the board out of the water easier. Once the board is out of the water, tacking upwind and gaining some speed is all you need for happiness and a good ride. At those low (say, 15 knots and less) riding speed, the additional drag of the freeride wing does not seem to be an issue at all. It is the lift of the wing that got me going.

When on the race wing, I needed more power from the kite to get to the speed to get the board out of the water. And my 175x55 board is not exactly small. If the minimum required power and speed is not attained, it will not be possible to foil.

So far, I clocked about 15 hours on the Zeeko Makaira foil. About 2/3rd of the time was spent on the freeride wing and 1/3rd on the race wing. Yes the race wing has certainly less drag than the freeride wing but it is my current opinion that the additional lift of the freeride wing makes it a light wind champion.

Future experience will tell more.

Norm

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby cglazier » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:10 pm

Your hydrofoil doesn't care about windspeed, it only responds to board speed.

A big wing on your hydrofoil it will get you up panning at a lower board speed. But big flat inefficent wings like the old Carafino or the MIHL Lift require more pull to go through the water than the modern smaller aerodynamically shaped foils. Thus they require bigger kites.

A modern efficient wing (like Spotz, Zeeko, Alpine, etc.) will start you foiling at a higher board speed but it will keep you up foiling with a smaller kite. Note also that you must maintain a higher board speed for a smaller wing to work.

:wink: CG

[I have kited with the old Carafino, the MIHL Lift, the Spotz (with both big and small wings) and an Aguera foil].

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:42 pm

cglazier wrote:Your hydrofoil doesn't care about windspeed, it only responds to board speed.

A big wing on your hydrofoil it will get you up panning at a lower board speed. But big flat inefficent wings like the old Carafino or the MIHL Lift require more pull to go through the water than the modern smaller aerodynamically shaped foils. Thus they require bigger kites.

A modern efficient wing (like Spotz, Zeeko, Alpine, etc.) will start you foiling at a higher board speed but it will keep you up foiling with a smaller kite. Note also that you must maintain a higher board speed for a smaller wing to work.

:wink: CG

[I have kited with the old Carafino, the MIHL Lift, the Spotz (with both big and small wings) and an Aguera foil].
Spot on IMO Chris :thumb:

So low AR inefficient foils are NOT low wind foils (well, if they require huge kites to work, they are not much better than raceboards...)

But at some point, the wing will be too small, or too little lift, to be able to fly with a reasonably low amount of power - so at SOME point when size and camber is diminished, the more efficient faster foils will begin to be worse in ultimate low wind I think :naughty:

Where the splitting point is, will depend on a huge number of factors I believe, and how big and where the split is - I dont know, but pretty sure that is how it is connected :rollgrin:

I am pretty sure though, that the better riders, are able to pump faster smaller foils up in lighter wind, than they can ride with more lifting foils, than the less experienced riders who needs more raw kite pull instead, and more lift (and drag) on the foil :wink:

Another issue to take into account, on these "early" stages of many of our individual hydrofoil history's :crazy:

8) PF

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby Randahl » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:01 pm

I had a chat with one of the competitors in the Gold Cup last night. He said he didn't think the big kites were going away, they would still be used, because now they would consider holding races in 5-6 knots. He was afraid people would start showing up with big non-inflatables.

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby ChristoffM » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:08 pm

I hope foilboard racing will help the development of extra light wind kites. For sub 8 knot winds, one needs a very light weight kite with excellent size to weight ratio. My experience is that with the lightest inflatable kite I have (3.6kg for a 14m) that the kite falling out the sky is my limiting factor and not the fact that the 14m kite is too small. A bigger kite will only be of much advantage if it will stay in the air in lighter wind.

And then a more efficient kite on longer lines will probably also mean that kites do onot have to be much bigger than 14 or 15m, even for heavy riders.

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby ronnie » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:14 pm

From the speed the kites are moving at, this seems to be very light wind (they say 5 to 7 knots). Maxime is using a 17m and it shows the foil pumping technique very well too, so a pretty good video to show how to get a race foil foiling in very light wind without that big a board.


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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby Hawaiis » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:06 pm

This is what I call super low wind foiling. There is some serious skills to kite in such low wind.

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby lezo » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:08 pm

For me a RACE wing is a low AR low-drag front wing and a SPEED wing is a high AR low drag front wing. The first is for low-end conditions and max. upwind performance, and the second is for, well, to go fast.

I ride well-powered at 6 kts on a Spotz race wing with a FS Speed3 DLX 15m with 40m lines.

Apparently you can also kite at 3-4 kts with 70m lines:

[vimeo]http://vimeo.com/84118442[/vimeo]

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby Hawaiis » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:18 am

lezo wrote:For me a RACE wing is a low AR low-drag front wing and a SPEED wing is a high AR low drag front wing. The first is for low-end conditions and max. upwind performance, and the second is for, well, to go fast.

I ride well-powered at 6 kts on a Spotz race wing with a FS Speed3 DLX 15m with 40m lines.

Apparently you can also kite at 3-4 kts with 70m lines:

Great info

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Re: Foiling with big kites

Postby fun2kite » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:37 pm

Hi Randahl,

What is the weight of 14.5 C2?

17M C2?

Also what are your thoughts for 14.5 C2 vs 15M Lotus Speed 4?
Which one you think would allow for a lower end foiling?

Thank you!
-D.
Randahl wrote:I have the cloud 14.5 C2 and it's as big as you would need for foil boarding. You will be surprised at the apparent wind you are generating especially when you stop and realize how light the wind actually is. I have gotten stuck that way with a Switchblade. I got going and was very well powered until i stopped on the opposite side of the bay and the kite wouldn't stay in the air. (not in a wind shadow)

A small-light-maneuverable kite like your cloud is good. I also appreciate the drift and maneuvering qualities of the cloud when going "downwind" on the foil. Good for cruising.


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