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 Post subject: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:58 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
First...how to get the actual picture of the vid to post on here? Tried all links, etc. and can only get the url.



Second...The video is longer than most I post because I'm looking for some advice and suggestions. I'm coming along well and have only about over an hour of actual time on the water so far, but learning a ton of what to do and what not to do to make life easier. I've spent a lot of time walking, walking, walking upwind, etc. to make life easier.

Managing the board is huge and a pain in the ass at first.

So any help is greatly appreciated on suggestions for riding the foil longer and better.

My guess is I still have too much back foot pressure at times. When powered nicely, I try to have even balance on both feet with just a little heel pressure.

It was really light winds, so put up a 17m Turbine and that was a great choice.

As a kiteboarding dealer, I want to get halfway decent at riding first before even thinking of bring in any foils. These are different animals and so much harder to learn than riding normal kiteboards.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


Last edited by toyletbowl on Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:13 am 
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That is pretty impressive for the first day. Look like you are on the right track. Just more water time.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:26 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
I should clarify,

Day number 4.

Day 1 = 15 minutes and broken foil.
Day 2 = 30 minutes of actual time trying to ride.
Day 3 = Really underpowered day and maybe 30 minutes at most trying to ride
Day 4 is above.

Spent much more time walking in the water than riding.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:44 am 
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Then you are just like the rest of us. :naughty:
How did the foil break?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:24 am 
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toyletbowl wrote:
First...how to get the actual picture of the vid to post on here? Tried all links, etc. and can only get the url.

http://vimeo.com/98834996

Second...The video is longer than most I post because I'm looking for some advice and suggestions. I'm coming along well and have only about over an hour of actual time on the water so far, but learning a ton of what to do and what not to do to make life easier. I've spent a lot of time walking, walking, walking upwind, etc. to make life easier.

Managing the board is huge and a pain in the ass at first.

So any help is greatly appreciated on suggestions for riding the foil longer and better.

My guess is I still have too much back foot pressure at times. When powered nicely, I try to have even balance on both feet with just a little heel pressure.

It was really light winds, so put up a 17m Turbine and that was a great choice.

As a kiteboarding dealer, I want to get halfway decent at riding first before even thinking of bring in any foils. These are different animals and so much harder to learn than riding normal kiteboards.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


You are doing great Bob :thumb:


And very safe/easy on day 4, maybe because you did not have a helmet on ?

I remember when learning the basics, I always went up foiling high and most often ending with the "foil bomb" where the foil ventilates or even pops fully free, and I fly forward quite fast and far while the board follows you itself foiling by itself often better than I could ha haa !

Image

But having a small board, AND really big chop, this was by far the best way (at least it worked, and you learned to crash without too much stress he hee)

I assume you have seen this/these: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2385015
Especially BraCuru made a really good one for first timers on a hydrofoil, about what you have experienced on your first 3 times :thumb:

Agree fully with Hawaiis - you are on the right track, and learning very fast too - so just continue :rollgrin:

Handling the board - how to hold it, how to walk with it, how to boarddrag out to deep water, how to hold it in the water, how to avoid the foil hitting you or you hitting the wings, how to avoid get the foil out of the lines - all this takes a lot of time and the first days are always mostly this stuff I think (it was for me)
When you can ride like now, short distances now and then up foiling, there is only one way, and that is to continue, as with this very task - to be able to ride for longer distances, there are no secrets at all but simply muscle memory that TAKES time to learn, and you will be there gradually from now :D

For your video to work, you should use vimeo instead of url, and remember to manually put the missing "www." into the link, and voilá :



8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:06 pm 
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Back from my holidays on Fuerteventura, here is my experience after my first 3 days of learning, maybe it can help one or another beginner:

    Day 1: “Fighting” for one hour with the foilboard in 20 knots, no flying at all.
    Day 2: My exercise as described further down
    Day 3: www.vimeo.com/98478381

What helped ME the most:
    1. Back foot positioned more towards the front/”sweet spot”.
    2. Standing upright, no edging or weight shift to heels or rear of board

To 1: If the back foot is positioned more to the front/sweet spot of the foil and if the stance is rather closer than wider then the leverage of the back foot is smaller. Result: Less “kangarooying”. In the opposite it seemed to me that the wider the stance the more nervous the ride is in the beginning. Later on with more experience the back foot should take its usual placement.

To 2: In an upright body position and a rather flat board position on the water it was easier for me just having to master the up and down movements of the foilboard. If you try to edge up towards heels (for example in gusts) you additionaly have to master another dimension: Pressure on the front/back heel will not only result in up and down but also in fast direction change as well: Heavier wipeouts… greets from my ankle...

My exercise on day 2: I went on a rather bigger kite on a directional (with no foil) in the lowest speed possible (no full gliding) halfwind. Tried to keep the board as flat as possible, no edging on heels. Tried to stand as upright as possible, didn’t lean too much against the kite. Took the rear foot as much to the front as possible. Tried to handle the gusts only by sheeting the bar and by stiffening bodytension. Avoided the “normal” reaction to a gust by putting more weight on heels/the rear. Or: Tried to keep the angle of the foil/board in the water as much the same as possible. Tried not to gain speed but to keep the vehicle balanced “upright”.
Doing the same later with the foil it was kind of the breakthrough for me!!!

Also: Make yourself conscious of the difference between having or having not a foil under the board
No foil: Only two dimensions of the board`s movement: slower/faster and left/right. No matter how hard you change the angle of the kiteboard while riding, the board will (usually) stay on the surface of the water. No change in the dimension “height”.
Foil: An additional dimension: up/down. If you change the angle of the board/foil it will follow towards the new direction/angle very directly.

Spot: flag beach, small waves, 10-25 knots
My gear: MAGMA intermediate foil, cabrinha S-quad 6`2, NKB Neo 9M

Can`t wait for my day number 4 :D
and: next time definitely with helmet and impact vest
Ride (fly) safe
greets


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:32 pm 
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joyrider1 wrote:
Snip...

To 2: In an upright body position and a rather flat board position on the water it was easier for me just having to master the up and down movements of the foilboard. If you try to edge up towards heels (for example in gusts) you additionaly have to master another dimension: Pressure on the front/back heel will not only result in up and down but also in fast direction change as well: Heavier wipeouts… greets from my ankle...

My exercise on day 2: I went on a rather bigger kite on a directional (with no foil) in the lowest speed possible (no full gliding) halfwind. Tried to keep the board as flat as possible, no edging on heels. Tried to stand as upright as possible, didn’t lean too much against the kite. Took the rear foot as much to the front as possible. Tried to handle the gusts only by sheeting the bar and by stiffening bodytension. Avoided the “normal” reaction to a gust by putting more weight on heels/the rear. Or: Tried to keep the angle of the foil/board in the water as much the same as possible. Tried not to gain speed but to keep the vehicle balanced “upright”.
Doing the same later with the foil it was kind of the breakthrough for me!!!

Also: Make yourself conscious of the difference between having or having not a foil under the board
No foil: Only two dimensions of the board`s movement: slower/faster and left/right. No matter how hard you change the angle of the kiteboard while riding, the board will (usually) stay on the surface of the water. No change in the dimension “height”.
Foil: An additional dimension: up/down. If you change the angle of the board/foil it will follow towards the new direction/angle very directly.

Snip...


Hmmm, curious about this, as I dont see this happening with the foils I've used ? (Zeeko and Takoon and a Spotz shortly)

These dont turn at all if I put pressure on my toes or heels when up foiling (and a foil should not, as it stabilizes itself in the upright position).

They turn when you make a twisting motion only.

But maybe you indirectly gain some ability to ride more "powerless" and not putting pressure on the front versus back foot, and balance yourself using the kite, if practising on a non foil raceboard and trying not to use heel-toepressure at all ?
It might work - but I think the most important thing is to learn to ride the kite very powerless and sheeted more out than usual, which you might practice by using a raceboard and trying to balance without foot pressure.

I can easily put my front or rear foot further towards the lee or windward side of the board - and it wont really turn doing this.
(but I will lose my balance and leverage when I turn for real and have to turn back, so not good of course, and the trim somehow just feels "bad" in every way)

As said before - the fact that a hydrofoil is balanced by itself regarding the "tilt" of the mast, makes the ability to sheet the kite in/out AND the ability to turn the board downwind/upwind by twisting - the reason why it takes so long to get it under your skin and be natural.

It is not something that is known from other sports as far as I know - although you CAN turn boards this way to some degree in f.ex surfing (or skateboarding), where you can pump the board by doing the twisting motion, where the board nose actually turns left and right of course.
But with these boards, you can also turn by using pressure on the edges meaning toes/heels (which is done when carving/turning fuller circles).

Posting this, as it seems that we are some who disagree a lot about this very topic ?


My statement is, that you dont turn a hydrofoil by putting pressure on your toes or heels (or leaning forwards/backwards which is the same).

You turn a hydrofoil by twisting, giving the yaw motion that turns it (making it curve/carve)
:naughty:

I am quite sure of this actually, but might be proven wrong and open for this to happen.

Agree with the added dimension, being one serious reason also, why we dont just do it right away :rollgrin:

Great to see you are succeding and getting "on" joyrider1, and can almost ride now, and guess you are ecstatic.

An amazing sport in every way :thumb:

8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:53 pm 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
Awesome tips guys. Peter...thanks for the www to add. Fixed it.

I had another guy on Facebook suggest moving my back foot further forward. It's odd, because while riding, the back foot felt unnatural and I do a lot of strapless surf riding, so I was thinking the same thing.

You have me thinking about how to then turn the board. I would have thought it's all about heel and toe pressure, but the rotation makes sense, but must be confusing, yes?

BTW...my helmet is now on my dash board and will not leave....EVER.

Thanks a ton for the tips and suggestions. This is what makes Kiteforum worth it.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Thank you Peter for your answer. Maybe I can put my impression clearer:

If you edge the board on both feet/heels with the same pressure front and back foot: nothing much will happen in terms of direction change. OK.
If you edge the board on both heels AND put more pressure on the front OR the back foot, it will go up/down AND turn (a little bit) to the side (looking from above). The more the board is edged, the more the turning.

Even on a twintip you have the same effect at higher speed when edging much on the heels and suddenly pushing the back foot for getting more tension on the lines before jumping by “turning” in to the wind.

Think of an airplane that is flying fast and has no side rudder. Think of it flying straight but in 45 degree angle on for example to left side. If it “pulls up” it will change the direction upwards (horizontally) and to the left (looking from above) at the same time. The same happens more or less with the foil in the water (I think). If you are riding with the board edged with your heels on the left side at an angle for example of 45 degree and put pressure on the back foot then the board will go up (horizontally) the same amount as it will go left (looking from above). That’s why you see sometimes videos with beginners` wipeouts where the board “explodes” suddenly to the heel side. I assume that they suddenly put more pressure on the back foot (e.g. handling a gust) while the boards was angled a lot to the heel side.

Extremely: If you rode the foil in a 90 degree angle sideways (like it is lying in the water before water start) and you wanted to “turn” it to the left or right (looking from above) then the front wing would be the “siderudder” and you could only turn to the left or right (looking from above) by changing the angle of the frontwing by pushing more the front or the back foot. Think of an jet airplane wanting to change direction sharply. I assume it would “roll” to one side at an angle of 90 degree and then pulling up or pushing down the stick. And with foils being in the much more dens water this might happen as well. When I think of the little area of the (front) wing being able to lift a man`s weight at not much speed out of the water then I imagine the strong effect of a foil travelling through water and changing its direction.

It is my impression that I would not have been so far (after actually two effective days because of the first day not being above water really :-? ) if I had tried to edge the board more to the heelside to resist the pull of the kite. With this “technique” mentioned above I had almost no wipeouts of the board to the side any more. As the pressure is only little with the rear front near the "sweet spot" it might not have this much effect. But beginners tend to do stronger movements and might think that a wider stance gives more stability. It is my impression that you will succeed faster if you do only little movements, because the feedback of the so much leading wing and mast are so direct in effect.
I did want as much time above water level riding and as little time being in the water after crashs :D . That`s why I decided to manage the straight riding first with not having to take care of turns because of all the above said. I am happy that I was successful and can recommend this to all beginners.

Ride safe
j.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:04 pm 
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The low AR wings wings are much easier to turn than High AR wings
In the picture the low AR has width to length ratio of about 2, the high AR has a ratio of 5,
They are completely different animals.


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