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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:13 pm 
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joyrider1 wrote:
My thoughts about turning a foilboard:

Generally every weight-steered vehicle that is unstable in rest and stable in movement seems to need a change of roll angle to make a stable turn/curve in an orbital way.
This is the case for example for: Biking, motor biking, snowboarding, skiing, unicycling, deltagliding, skateboarding, even waveriding and a lot of other sports as well. A foilboard is such a “vehicle” as well.
The straight stable movement forward needs to be broken down. Only if the weight center has been moved away from the center aside, the roll angle can be created.
For example a bike going in a straight stable direction needs to turn the handle bar for a very short moment into the wrong direction. Following this the vehicle will start to “fall” into the direction it actually wants to turn to and creates a roll angle to this direction. (If the rider would continue the first movement of the handle bar the bike would fall completely to the ground.) Only with the created roll angle it is possible to transfer from a straight to a stable circular/orbital movement. Valid at walking speed or 200mph!

This is valid for a kitefoil as well. First you have to create a roll angle by pushing your heels or toes for a very short time to the “wrong” side. By this having created enough weight shift/roll angle towards the "right" side you can afterwards push the “right” side of the board/foil and the turn into the intended direction can begin.

The ride in this video http://vimeo.com/91188392 only can be done by executing the above said (?). You can almost see how he changes the roll angle first and secondly being able to turn.
Twisting might only have a very little aspect in this. It more seems to help creating the roll angle? Yaw movement alone seems to be overestimated?

But: If you have a kite that you can hold onto, this all might be a little different because you can deliver a momentum towards the board against a stable “anchor” (the kite). This might change the game (a little bit).

Interesting because all this happens automatically all the time… More interesting: how can you give beginners like me translated advice or “pictures” of all the theory.

My 02cents in the evening
j.
could not have said it better myself, especially the bike part, here is a video of how to turn a motorcycle, called counter steering
[youtube]http://www.youtu.be/B8IdTq3_3WI[/youtube]
http://youtu.be/B8IdTq3_3WI


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:35 pm 
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Yo Bob!

Good points from everyone and I tend to look at it like a physics problem with force vectors everywhere, but in the end that doesn't help for the basics.

The bike analogy is probably the best and closest. You need both roll and yaw in harmony to turn. The thing is that with a regular kiteboard, roll is much more heavily biased and with the foil it's more yaw biased. I've only been out about 5 times and can stay up on the foil for 200 yards plus now. I've realized it's finesse not brute strength that will win. Bob, we have to unlearn kiteboarding, skiing, wakeboarding, snowboarding, etc that all use roll and edge as the primary turn mechanism. Like a bike, you can't turn on a dime with a foil. You need to predict and anticipate. Roll with it if that makes sense. The yaw motion, I've learned, is the key. I personally need to stand-up a little more and relax, but I'm getting there.

I'll tell you what, I'm very mentally exhausted after a 1-2 hour session. It's like trying to tight rope walk, where the big muscles aren't used, but the little ones are. I just need to roll with it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:15 pm 
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The advice, thoughts, comments and conjectures are helpful and interesting to read. I got out again today, no footstrap, no foot hook, and made out OK. Yes, plenty of crashes and frustration, but also some long runs on the board, foiling, back down on the board, foiling, etc. The wind was very unstable. Maybe 12-25 maximum differential. Lots of waves. Sometimes I would get up on the board and the nose would dive under a wave and that would be it. Only put the kite in the water 3 times today. Progress is slow, but noticeable. Very hard to start with no straps and inconsistent wind. Can't wait for the perfect morning session with smooth wind and water.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:21 pm 
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If you have the nose of the board in the water often, the foil is probably mounted to forward of the board, the MHL in particular has this problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:25 pm 
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Revhed: Yeah, this is awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQVy6oQmU0k

Wish I had a place like this to practice and work things out...


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:18 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
Hawaiis wrote:
If you have the nose of the board in the water often, the foil is probably mounted to forward of the board, the MHL in particular has this problem.


What do you mean by this? Older versions, newer versions? All? I'm borrowing one from a friend and it's the older version with the mid aspect foil.

Thanks,

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:52 am 
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toyletbowl wrote:
Hawaiis wrote:
If you have the nose of the board in the water often, the foil is probably mounted to forward of the board, the MHL in particular has this problem.


What do you mean by this? Older versions, newer versions? All? I'm borrowing one from a friend and it's the older version with the mid aspect foil.

Thanks,

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com

All MHL boards have the 4 bolts further forward than most other boards. It puts the Center of gravity more forward. And by putting your weight more forward, the nose tend to touch the water more often. If you are using the newer and smaller foils, it may be OK. The one I had was 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:52 am 
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Hawaiis wrote:
toyletbowl wrote:
Hawaiis wrote:
If you have the nose of the board in the water often, the foil is probably mounted to forward of the board, the MHL in particular has this problem.


What do you mean by this? Older versions, newer versions? All? I'm borrowing one from a friend and it's the older version with the mid aspect foil.

Thanks,

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com

All MHL boards have the 4 bolts further forward than most other boards. It puts the Center of gravity more forward. And by putting your weight more forward, the nose tend to touch the water more often. If you are using the newer and smaller foils, it may be OK. The one I had was 2013.


Hmmm, dont get it :roll:

If you have the foil further forward, you put the total center of gravity more aft (not forward), and the foil/board will tend to ride UP all the time if you dont move the straps and pads further forward too.
Can not really see how much impact the COG of the board alone got to say, compared to the average 80kgs standing on top ?

I have tried a hydrofoil where the mast was mounted way too far forward, and I almost had to stand on the nose of the board to ride it :wink:

But this is maybe what you mean - that when NOT foiling, you dont have much nose in front of you, so it might dip into the waves easier :D

8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Hawaii's, thanks. For me it was just beginner errors. I'm riding the Alpine Foil 4.5 with their board the AFB50. There were some decent height, short period, wind driven waves that I got the nose caught under, just a couple of times in a 1.5 hour session.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:59 am 
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My kitebuddie and I tried a MSL Lift ("cruising foil") on the weekend behind a jet ski.
With straps on I was able to get up but the foil would Kangaroo. Falls were bad for the ankles if falling backwards. Next time I tried strapless again I was able to get up but would fall forwards and one time landed almost face first on the foil luckily had time to put my arms in front of my face but ended up with nice cuts on my elbows.
I have 10 years kiting experience and ride on a surfboard. I also wakesurf and skateboard.
Is it easier to foil with a kite to give you added lift. How much more heal pressure do you need compared to kiting with a surfboard. Any tips appreciated. Great respect for all you foilers.


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