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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:10 pm 
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You are right J - you should not consider turning at all for a long time - learn to ride straight first, and manage this only.

Also correct that beginners tend to do to violent movements, which is an absolute nono in hydrofoiling, more than any other sport I know of.

Even when going straight, you will (without knowing) learn to control the twisting (yaw) movement and balancing power slowly but surely, so going straight will still deliver the necessary skills to turn eventually, when you are more confident.

Avoiding pressure on the heels, will most likely cause you to ride "softer" and more balanced front/aft - which is what it is all about :thumb:

8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:33 am 
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toyletbowl wrote:
First...how to get the actual picture of the vid to post on here? Tried all links, etc. and can only get the url.



Second...The video is longer than most I post because I'm looking for some advice and suggestions. I'm coming along well and have only about over an hour of actual time on the water so far, but learning a ton of what to do and what not to do to make life easier. I've spent a lot of time walking, walking, walking upwind, etc. to make life easier.

Managing the board is huge and a pain in the ass at first.

So any help is greatly appreciated on suggestions for riding the foil longer and better.

My guess is I still have too much back foot pressure at times. When powered nicely, I try to have even balance on both feet with just a little heel pressure.

It was really light winds, so put up a 17m Turbine and that was a great choice.

As a kiteboarding dealer, I want to get halfway decent at riding first before even thinking of bring in any foils. These are different animals and so much harder to learn than riding normal kiteboards.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


Hi Bob.

Here are a few pointers.

1) Do not use the back Footstrap. Take it off. And for the start place your back food directly over the Mast. This will give you a more progressive liftoff and more back foot pressure. Way easier than the setup you have now.

2) Loosen up your front leg a bit when you want to rise up. Basically let the board come up to your foot, instead of pushing or lifting it up.

--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:06 pm 
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gmb13 wrote:
toyletbowl wrote:
First...how to get the actual picture of the vid to post on here? Tried all links, etc. and can only get the url.



Second...The video is longer than most I post because I'm looking for some advice and suggestions. I'm coming along well and have only about over an hour of actual time on the water so far, but learning a ton of what to do and what not to do to make life easier. I've spent a lot of time walking, walking, walking upwind, etc. to make life easier.

Managing the board is huge and a pain in the ass at first.

So any help is greatly appreciated on suggestions for riding the foil longer and better.

My guess is I still have too much back foot pressure at times. When powered nicely, I try to have even balance on both feet with just a little heel pressure.

It was really light winds, so put up a 17m Turbine and that was a great choice.

As a kiteboarding dealer, I want to get halfway decent at riding first before even thinking of bring in any foils. These are different animals and so much harder to learn than riding normal kiteboards.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


Hi Bob.

Here are a few pointers.

1) Do not use the back Footstrap. Take it off. And for the start place your back food directly over the Mast. This will give you a more progressive liftoff and more back foot pressure. Way easier than the setup you have now.

2) Loosen up your front leg a bit when you want to rise up. Basically let the board come up to your foot, instead of pushing or lifting it up.

--
Gunnar


Thanks Gunnar. Never thought of number 2, but makes complete sense.

One of the things I figured out quickly is how to get the damn board in my feet without shins getting killed or getting pulled over the board. I put the board off to the side, tip it up, get one foot in a footstrap and then the other. Then bring the board in froth of me straight downwind. Works great. I ride strapless surfboards a lot and trying to imaging getting a foil on with no straps (eventually). How do I get leverage to get the board tipped up? If the board is straight downwind, it's super hard to get the mast out of the water.

I find myself using my feet in the straps and pulling up on my does while drifting just to keep the mast up.

Probably just trial and error or any tips are appreciated. Sometimes just the basics (getting on the board) can make or break a session.

Thanks,

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:44 pm 
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toyletbowl wrote:
Snip...

One of the things I figured out quickly is how to get the damn board in my feet without shins getting killed or getting pulled over the board. I put the board off to the side, tip it up, get one foot in a footstrap and then the other. Then bring the board in froth of me straight downwind. Works great. I ride strapless surfboards a lot and trying to imaging getting a foil on with no straps (eventually). How do I get leverage to get the board tipped up? If the board is straight downwind, it's super hard to get the mast out of the water.

I find myself using my feet in the straps and pulling up on my does while drifting just to keep the mast up.

Probably just trial and error or any tips are appreciated. Sometimes just the basics (getting on the board) can make or break a session.

Thanks,

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


You can NOT get any leverage to get the board tipped up, when strapless (like used to on strapless surfboards where it is really easy).

So you have to tip the board up with your hand, and then start before it tips down or turns (or hold it there if you can - I can not).

See Bracurus excellent basic handling video:



When strapped you dont have to do it exactly like this, but strapless it is bullseye how you do it :thumb:

I dont like to ride with my rear foot out of the strap, so when learning I put the rear strap (actually both straps) at the most forward position - to obtain what Gunnar says.

Have ridden strapless ever since the very start and initial phase though.

Some things are more difficult, and starting is one of them - but when you get the timing right, it works easy and feels so great :D

8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:09 pm 
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I am fairly new to this and learning to ride strapless. I found there is a balance point on the board rail that allows me to hold the board tipped up reasonably well. I can hold the board like this and press both feet gently against it while turning the kite with my "bottom" hand. As in BraCuru's video, "A top hand controls a board."

My problem is that I seem to have the board pointing too much across the wind (heading perpendicular to the wind) so that when I start, it just keeps going upwind and tips completely over to windward. Seems better if I can point it more downwind and have enough power to get pulled up onto it with the board in a more flat position. Or maybe I just need to weight my front foot more, if possible. I'm sure I have a tendency to kick into it with my back foot from all the twin tip riding I have done up until now. If I point the board too far downwind, though, the kite just pulls me away from it and I slide off.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Johhnn wrote:
I am fairly new to this and learning to ride strapless. I found there is a balance point on the board rail that allows me to hold the board tipped up reasonably well. I can hold the board like this and press both feet gently against it while turning the kite with my "bottom" hand. As in BraCuru's video, "A top hand controls a board."

My problem is that I seem to have the board pointing too much across the wind (heading perpendicular to the wind) so that when I start, it just keeps going upwind and tips completely over to windward. Seems better if I can point it more downwind and have enough power to get pulled up onto it with the board in a more flat position. Or maybe I just need to weight my front foot more, if possible. I'm sure I have a tendency to kick into it with my back foot from all the twin tip riding I have done up until now. If I point the board too far downwind, though, the kite just pulls me away from it and I slide off.


Just continue like that.

Your problem is too much power and lack of "natural" instinctive control.

If you can get yourself upright (= waterstarting) while having the board halfwind and edged - you are in the clear quite soon :D
But you will experience that the board edges out of the water, and up very tilted, and maybe the foil wings will even come out of the water.
This will dissappear as soon as you find the right balance, where you just get up "on" the board, instead of waterstarting with power in the kite, like on other boards.

So a sensitive balanced start, and you are up - and then you can always dive the kite to get up foiling, if not sufficient :thumb:

The best start IMO, is when the board is pointed a bit downwind, edged a bit, and not pointing so much downwind that you get pulled forward.
This fine balance takes time to find - but when you find it, you can get up and foiling right away with some margin for errors :naughty:

8) PF


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:00 pm 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
joyrider1 wrote:




These dont turn at all if I put pressure on my toes or heels when up foiling (and a foil should not, as it stabilizes itself in the upright position).

They turn when you make a twisting motion only.




Posting this, as it seems that we are some who disagree a lot about this very topic ?


My statement is, that you dont turn a hydrofoil by putting pressure on your toes or heels (or leaning forwards/backwards which is the same).

You turn a hydrofoil by twisting, giving the yaw motion that turns it (making it curve/carve)
:naughty:

I am quite sure of this actually, but might be proven wrong and open for this to happen.


8) PF


Ok Peter, I will attempt to prove you wrong only because of your above statement, respectfully!
And hopefully to help others understand my thoughts on turning a kiteboardhydrofoil.
I post this photo to help prove my point.
Attachment:
DSC01880.JPG
DSC01880.JPG [ 3.58 MIB | Viewed 347 times ]

It is extreamly clear to me that when I do a flying turns in this stance that I change foot pressure and the same goes when you do any turn in any stance.
I like you am open for dispute in the sake of learning but I am sure of this.
You need to put the kite where it will pull you thru the turn, at least in a jibe, a tack is a little different.
I feel I turn the kite up or down and wait until it starts to pull in the other direction then APPLY foot pressure on the down wind rail for a jibe and carve thru the turn.
Of course there is different timing for different wind speeds and turn radius.

I feel strongly that the turn happens when the STRUT, not MAST (see wikipedia for definition)
passes thru the vertical to arrive in the oppsit angle after the turn.
There must be a time when the strut is vertical and twisting alone can never make this happen.
The only way for this to happen is by applying weight on the rails to bring it up to vertical!
Twisting when not appling rail pressure will do very little to make a turn.
I believe the twisting to bring yaw rotation may play a role but a small one, and now that I think about it very little.
I will pay close attention to this my next session.
R H
By the way for anyone wanting to find the center of lift on any foil, flying toes forward will quickly narrow it down!
So what do you or anyone else think?


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:03 pm 
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@toyletbowl
@Johhnn

Maybe this is helpful:
Foiling means riding the board in a much smoother way of movement than normal kiteboarding, at least in the beginning. Concentrate on moving also your body calmly, especially your legs and feet. Try to ride a directional without foil in the smoothest way possible for a longer distance and you might be surprised how unusual it is in the beginning. Not because it is hard but because you simply are not used to. It was simply just not necessary. And it might take more concentration.
For example did you try to just ride the foilboard in one direction for let`s say 200 meters and making it not starting to fly but keeping it as calm as possible just moving the board flatly in the water at the same speed and direction, no matter what? I bet if you can do this reliably then the first stable flights over longer distance will very soon look like my rides on the third day.

Make up your mind what you want: Forcing the success of foiling with the way you are used to moving your body while “normal” kiteboarding (“much activity?”) or maybe taking the time training helpful things like the example above first.

Don’t try to take several steps at the same time. Be patient and just let things happen. They will happen faster this way. I experienced it just two weeks ago.
my02cents

Greets j.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:48 pm 
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My thoughts about turning a foilboard:

Generally every weight-steered vehicle that is unstable in rest and stable in movement seems to need a change of roll angle to make a stable turn/curve in an orbital way.
This is the case for example for: Biking, motor biking, snowboarding, skiing, unicycling, deltagliding, skateboarding, even waveriding and a lot of other sports as well. A foilboard is such a “vehicle” as well.
The straight stable movement forward needs to be broken down. Only if the weight center has been moved away from the center aside, the roll angle can be created.
For example a bike going in a straight stable direction needs to turn the handle bar for a very short moment into the wrong direction. Following this the vehicle will start to “fall” into the direction it actually wants to turn to and creates a roll angle to this direction. (If the rider would continue the first movement of the handle bar the bike would fall completely to the ground.) Only with the created roll angle it is possible to transfer from a straight to a stable circular/orbital movement. Valid at walking speed or 200mph!

This is valid for a kitefoil as well. First you have to create a roll angle by pushing your heels or toes for a very short time to the “wrong” side. By this having created enough weight shift/roll angle towards the "right" side you can afterwards push the “right” side of the board/foil and the turn into the intended direction can begin.

The ride in this video http://vimeo.com/91188392 only can be done by executing the above said (?). You can almost see how he changes the roll angle first and secondly being able to turn.
Twisting might only have a very little aspect in this. It more seems to help creating the roll angle? Yaw movement alone seems to be overestimated?

But: If you have a kite that you can hold onto, this all might be a little different because you can deliver a momentum towards the board against a stable “anchor” (the kite). This might change the game (a little bit).

Interesting because all this happens automatically all the time… More interesting: how can you give beginners like me translated advice or “pictures” of all the theory.

My 02cents in the evening
j.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner video....looking for advice.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:06 pm 
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So how do you make a foil turn?

I like to keep things simple and easy, so let me give this a try.

If I'm riding a foil with no edging at all and going across the wind, it seems obvious to tip the board to the heel side edge and you'll go upwind more.

Then, if needing a sharper turn upwind, put pressure on the back foot or lift front foot and the foil should angle in that direction.

So I do see a difference between heel/toe pressure and back foot / front foot. Correct?

Yes?

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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