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Canard Foil

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borist
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby borist » Tue May 23, 2017 7:28 pm

do you ride strapless? if not perhaps very first thing should be footstrap location. If you do ride strapless and played with foot location, than depending on how the board behaves I'd trim AoA on front wing with very thin shims. I'd use a shim .010" thick that I can put under one of the screws to tweak AoA. First I'd make AoA higher (leading edge up) and see what it does. If nothing or makes things worse, try the other way - lower AoA. Depending on the results make shim thicker. It is trial and error. My gut feel is than minor adjustment can make a big difference (very often for worse :( )
I did this to my Alpine way back, going to extremes until I settled on what worked the best. Tougher to do in rough water though.
You may also try to look up Jim Stringfellow on Facebook and ask him. He did some experimentation with canard setup and might be willing to chat. He is lot more qualified than me.

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Tue May 23, 2017 7:52 pm

Thanks Borist. I am using hooks, same foot placement as with regular wings, so that may well not be ideal. Some experimentation there too perhaps.

For AoA, I have read of people doing this with normal wings, where one lifts, other drags, so find right balance. I wonder if it is more sensitive with canard, where both are lifting ... finding that balance point may be more delicate.

Will require some playing around, which isn't easy on a schedule ... kiting once every week or two amidst a busy life. I need to spend a week at a beach that is windy all day, play around to get it all perfect. :-)

Zeeko
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby Zeeko » Wed May 24, 2017 9:55 am

Hi,

Borist give you an excellen tip.
When I test for the first time a new product (ex front wing, fuselage or other) I first ride the product strapless, to see if my natural stance is same as usual and if not, what is the difference.

Canard foils are extremly sensitive to change of AoA (definitely more than regulare foils)
For example, on a regular foil (white and green for example) when I make tests, I trim the AoA of the wings every 0.3degres.
On a canard foil, I change the AoA every 0.15 degrees, and I feel the difference.
This is a main reason of why canard foils do not appear sooner, it requires more R&D than a regular foil.
But if you persist for sure you'll find the answer and you'll enter in a new world.
From what I see on your pics, maybe back wing (the main one ) have too much span. and I tried to put the front wing lower, but It do not work as well as when you put it on the top of the fuselage (specially when you start to be fast)

ride easy
Nicolas

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Starsky
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby Starsky » Wed May 24, 2017 2:59 pm

Ooooooh! That is gold. Many thanks,,,,, for all the great work. You top few are so far ahead of the pack.

It astounds me that the big kite brand actually sell foils when the true knowledge base puts out such great and affordable product.

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Wed May 24, 2017 4:01 pm

X2 Starsky

Thanks so much Nicolas, really appreciate the tips. That is very helpful info, direct from the prime source!

Span -- I tried for same outline as the spitfire, but sized up 20%, to see if that would make it more friendly at lower speeds. Even with that, I actually suspect that part of my problem is going too slow. Seems the nose drop mostly goes away once going fast. It is scary opening it up though, not knowing what will happen at more speed, where things might go sideways. That's the trial and error adventure I guess :-)

borist
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby borist » Wed May 24, 2017 6:00 pm

Starsky wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 2:59 pm
It astounds me that the big kite brand actually sell foils when the true knowledge base puts out such great and affordable product.
It is the people who buy them that astound me.

cab driver: cabrinha came out with a foil. i'm gonna get it
me: why? what makes you think it is any good?
cab driver: it is cabrinha
me: :roll:

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:17 am

Canard attempt #3 tonight. Not planning to belabour this with daily updates, but figure one last follow up to my question. It clicked for me this evening, able to ride extended periods without nose drop or stalling. So it seems my problem was more pilot error. Though I'd also say the foil isn't quite as stable as my stringy yet, so I think there's still room for tweaking ... on a nice day with lots of wind and time, I look forward to playing around with AoA.

The issue for me was over compensating for this odd rear foot bias effect people have mentioned about the canard. I realized I was leaning back, not committing enough front foot pressure to gain speed. And as illogical as it sounds, it seems the cure to nose drops was to lean forward more -- trust the foil to ride out uncomfortable speeds. When it felt like I was travelling "down hill", like dropping into a wave, then it started working. My mind was playing tricks on me in being over-cautious. And something that helped was one of the other beginner threads, mentioning the beginner phase where you focus on being loose, unclenching tight muscles, and seeking more flow ... it worked!

Other canard feedback: the toeside to heelside carve is incredibly tight. Such a cool carving feeling. It is going to be super fun to dial in the turns on this thing.

My quads are so sore from a 2 hour session, that i can barely walk. :-)

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:09 am

Canard attempt #4, tried back to back with my regular foil. Probably my last canard attempt for a while, just because of how much fun it was on my faux stringy*. I figure partially due to just being more used to, partially due to the characteristics of the canard.

(* DIY stringy knock off..... Thicker and slower than the original.)

Random thoughts:

-- canard was noticably faster and quicker turning. The surfboard equivalent might be a 6 foot high performance shortboard vs a 7 foot funshape. Just like a funshape, the regular foil was easy to get up on foil and very stable, though the top end came quicker. The turning is very different, with turn on canard coming off the back leg (like a surf or snowboard carve) and regular foil being more like steering through the turn balanced.

-- Canard required more attention to balance to stay up, regular foil like standing in a boat ( though may just be experience and may be poor balance on my canard set up).

-- after an hour on canard with pretty much no wipeouts, on regular foil I ventilated the front fin and crashed in first minute.

-- my muscles on rear leg got sore after an hour. After switching to regular foil, I then felt strain on front leg. Riding them side by' side, you can sure feel the difference in the front leg vs back leg pressure.

All in all, the funshape ride is probably more what I'm after right now, so will focus on that. The canard style is fun too for certain conditions. Might be particularly good if overpowered, as it may be more forgiving for riding out speed.

I am not sure the canard is the answer for wave riding though, if the goal is to drift the kite to turn off power and ride the wave's power alone. If the foil needs more speed to get up and stay up, then it doesn't allow the stalling type riding needed for this. Sounds like big slow wings are the call. However, canard would still be very fun for the follow-the-kite higher speed slashing in waves.

All in all, I need a 2nd fuselage so I can bring both to the beach, to more easily trade off and experiment more. Yayy, more toys. :thumb: :cool2: :D

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bragnouff
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby bragnouff » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:31 am

When I'm not so starved of wind that I can afford to waste some of it riding sub-optimal gear, I might take this one for a ride!
Let's call it the Cabrinhanard, shall we?
Ca-brinh-ard.jpg

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:31 am

bragnouff wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:31 am
When I'm not so starved of wind that I can afford to waste some of it riding sub-optimal gear, I might take this one for a ride!
Let's call it the Cabrinhanard, shall we?
DO IT! I bet it will get up on foil at very low speeds. Good sup foil maybe


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