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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 pm
by Horst Sergio
Hi Peter,

respect, "stabless strapless" :D is very hard :thumb: . So you are still under the worlds top ten monofoilers (now around 5 at my lake) and third, who has tried "stabless strapless" :thumb:
I have given up strapless after halft a session as flying tacks and jibes without straps are maybe not impossible, but extremly hard, Caneri Man and Foiloffs are a joke compared :wink: .

Yes first it is difficult, also my first tries around 2,5 years ago were pushed by curiosity, to see if and how it works. But then I have seen the further potential.

After now about 15 sessions in a row of just mono foiling I had a new revelation:

During last year when I always switched in between normal foil and monofoil there was always this thought on the first 100 m and more: "Oh, remember this is the mono, be concentrated, stay slow, pay attention ..."
Today first time, after the first 100 m this comes into my mind: "Oh, but this is the monofoil, isn't it, but it doesn't feel anymore like something special, but just like normal foiling has been a year ago, no need to pay attention for nothing..."

And also the rest of the session has been a blast:
Learned more stuff than in any session during maybe the last 10 years:
Stuff with my foilkite, propeller it 3 times to left and right and left and right ... kiting without constant laminar flow on the wing :D , let it flying backwards, while always riding downwind, as Greg from BRM does with his tubes.
Riding the mono really powered very well without being overpowered... and first tries of arial jibes (as the normal foil flying jibes are still hard :wink: , first try made it :D ) ...

After the first tests, the further motivation was to see, if the mono could reach the point to be a better "normal foil" with the free feeling and performance, but especially for jumping with less risks and weight.
As the levitaz fuselage is very heavy for a carbon foil this was one additionally point to save lots of weight on the worst position.

As I hoped, mono foiling now starts to be much about jumping, not big air, but unexplored freestyle possibilities: Land in any angle like on a TT even backwards ...

And this is where it goes:
Latest monofoil from a friend, with light straps it should be around 4,8 kg. Mine is 5,9 kg with the benefit of some volume. I know there are lighter foils as the HORUE H13, but don't think any other foils of this weight which is stable enough, that you can land hardly and additionally in any angle you want, as there is no stabi that blocks a wing forward landing. Further more the construction is more stable as pressure point is closer to strut. And no stabi to hurt or pointed wing tips. Today once had the foil in the lines first time since long and first with the mono: Also here much less problem and risk to tangle hard....

So in conclusion:

if you want to ride stRapless and also a lot in waves. Then I think it is maybe not worth to learn foiling once again on the mono, as for sure to hard for that.

If you want to do freestyle jumping, but not big air. Then it can be worth to invest time to learn the mono.

Very happy I have done it.

Will keep my racefoil for some occasions, but now sure, the near future is just mono, so many tricks to learn without danger, but lots of fun. :thumb:
Next I will build a shorter strut as the friend has done, Ketos Box is ordered, ready to cut it down :naughty: . Long struts are just not needed on a mono, that can surface without catapult, think about 85 cm should be better than the 96 cm, and by side-effect makes it once again, more compact, lighter, easier, safer; My racefoil I nearly never ride with less than 110 cm strut and now full race setup is an 1,4 m x 1,2 m x 8 kg monster full of pointy knife like stabis and wing tips, not good to learn new board offs and similar stuff or over head tricks with :o .


P.S. Oh, but keep in mind difficulty is much about wing shape, high AR is nearly impossible, turned back to Element with Span: 501 mm; Root Chord: 163 mm; Wing Area: 679 cm²; Aspect Ratio: 3,9
The airrush I tried once had an outline similar to your ketos with higher AR and this was to hard to use.

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:58 am
by steph66
I have tried strapless stabless with the ketos wings.
it's really hard with the wave but much easier with the 1200 ;) ...

...but I will keep my stab XXS

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:14 pm
by Horst Sergio
Hi Steph,

I also wouldn't change to stabless, if I would be that good in strapless and the combination is just not so interesting. Even now miss the potential to ride sitting a lot :( .

And as you see wing makes huge difference not just the surface, but also the shape. Wonder how interesting and "easy" stabless could become, if some one with experience would shape a wing really designed for stabless, with more twist and so on. Actually most of the low AR and low cost beginner wings are shaped without to much love for hydrodynamic details. Hope to make enough commercial for this setup that one day a shaper comes to that point.
Waiting my self for a video done 3 month ago to be cut which shows how well mono foil works even with those wings not shaped for mono.

Oldschool Monofoiling

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:48 pm
by Horst Sergio
Good news for all owners of kites from the last century.

Monofoiling is fully compatible with open cell handle kites from 1997 as the famous windtools mosquito pro :D

7,5 m² means great performance in 5 knots of wind and fully overpowered in 6 knots of wind :rollgrin:
Sorry Benny Bölli, this day the 7,5 m² mossi has done much more km before drop then the 15 m² Sonic Race :P

It jibes, jumps and the best, it even relaunches from water :thumb: ... sometimes :oops:

Oh and there are once again new pure monofoil constructions around, till now should be 4 or 5 just in our region. :D

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:29 am
by blu

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:13 am
by Peter_Frank
Ha haa, awesome Horst :thumb:

Eventhough you could just as well have made a new topic, as it got nothing to do with stabless or not :wink:

I learned to kitesurf with this very type, 7.5 m2 Mosquito Pro in 1999, two lined kite on a directional :rollgrin:

Problem was overflying - it had to be modified, each single small bridle line, to avoid this, and then it did not go well upwind.

For cleaner wind and less wind, like on a foil, it might work much better ?
When modified to 3 or 4 lines, it worked better.

I also had the 9 m2, it must be able to ride on a foil in ridiculously low wind :naughty:

8) PF

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:32 pm
by Horst Sergio
Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:13 am
Eventhough you could just as well have made a new topic, as it got nothing to do with stabless or not :wink:
Yes and no,
your right as I will open a new topic for old foil kites as I also used after the 1997 mossy, today an 2002 FS Psycho1 and hope to also try the hardest piece these days: An around 1993 kiteski kite :D , on the monofoil as it is now my always and everywhere board.

And this was the point I wanted to tell here. Monofoil for me now is the best, safest and standard kite vehicle. And my nice race foil is getting dusty since 4 month I haven't used it anymore.

It is possible to go into waves (just small one till no), do nearly all tricks and with experience ride in very difficult conditions or as seen with pretty difficult old kites.

Oh and there still so many new tricks to learn as this one from Mr. first documented try of a monofoil backflip kiteloop, with 100 kg a 9 m² Sonic Race in nearly no wind. :rollgrin:
Still waiting for the video, which will show how normal monofoiling can be. I am now at 90 % success rate doing flying tacks with full strap to strap feet switch.

@Peter Frank:
Also my first "Water Kites" have been 2x Mosquito II prototypes I was getting around 2000 as Windtools was based in a town very close where I live. Great kites for its time and still awesome light wind power and light wind flight. :thumb:

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pm
by Horst Sergio
For those maybe interested, a new try to put actually known advantages and disadvantage together to help decision if it is worth to confront with the biggest disadvantage, that you have to learn foiling once again:

Easy learning:
+ stabi foil: Anybody with good kite flying skills can start learning it.
-- monofoil: First stabi foiling has to be learned till a good level with save flying jibes, etc. than complete restart with monofoiling

- stabi foil: more parts and more complex parts out of better materials, therefore significant higher costs
+ monofoil: less complex structure: Two parts: one alu strut screwed to a flat low AR fiberglass wing with an integrated short fuselage connection can be enough and maybe easily build your own for less than 100 €, will try this myself.

- stabi foil: Two more and in overall much more pointy wingtips, higher speeds, longer struts
+ monofoil: Just one low AR wing with rounded tips can reach better angle of glide than stabi race foils, struts can be shorter due to lower AR wings and no "stabi breathing to catapult" problems

Low and high wind and windrange per kite size:
+ stabi foil: Wider windrange as more kitepower and speed can be conrolled, ability to pump in low wind
0 monofoil: Bit better low wind start, thanks to free movement, especially in low on shore conditions due to shorter struts, more compact structure and no stabi to break on ground, but a bit less high end and range

Speedrange and long distance ability:
+ stabi foil: Much higher speeds over much longer time, ability to relaxe by sitting while foiling, myself done more than 100 km per session.
- monofoil: Lower speeds and shorter ridding times, due to higher demand on concentration, till now just up to 50 km per session.

Glide angle and so ability for maneuvers as 360s
0 stabi foil: Good glide angle just on race foils, but much wider speed allow in combination very wide 360s
0 monofoil: Better glide angle allow also pretty wide 360s, but more flexible in turning radius as not blocked by a stabi

Freestyle and workout potential
0 stabi foil: Many tricks and additionally also boosting very high, sitting, canery man, etc.
+ monofoil: No boosting and canery man but due to low swing weight and easier flying landings, much more fun to jump and much more tricks especially foil offs etc.

Also high wind above 30 knts is no problem, just needs a small kite as a 4,5 m² ConceptAir Wave in this latest picture:


And in the future?

Hope to build some boards and foils in the next month, as so easy for a mono. More and more think it is just most about a cord line of significant more than 15 cm. Additionally I want to try wings without anhedral. Also the Element with low anhedral survives most breaching, but I feel the bubble over one of the wing halfs for some seconds. An easy to build flat wing should improve this significantly, so you can even more surface and therefore use also shorter struts. So once again, less material, simpler structure, less weight, less moment of inertia, and better for waves. This one for example could be worth a try, good luck there are some kiter with those on our spots. :wink: :D
Nobile-Monofoil.jpg (23.52 KiB) Viewed 975 times

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:58 pm
by Horst Sergio
Have made a quick and dirty video in very low wind,

tried to improve stunt kiting skills, but this just requires much more wind than 8 knts. If it is more than 15 knts it is pretty easy to do infinity kite helicopters, till bar is blocked :wink: and even to fly an foil kite backwards over distance, but in low wind the power of the kite doing those things is to low to keep momentum. Hope to have a better video in the close future, Wizmount is a nice perspective for stuntkiting and also maneuvers.

phpBB [video]

Kitejunkie AcroMonofoiling.jpg
Also had the chance to try the nobile as monofoil, but to short for a real test. First impression was that it could be a bit more stable than my Element but felt much more draggy which I haven't expected for this mono as the Frontwing is pretty thin and not so much bigger than the Element.

Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:41 pm
by Peter_Frank
Simply just AWESOME Horst :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Some fluid air jibes :rollgrin:

You have amazing skills, and it is incredible to see how this kite can turn on a dime literally, and ride backwards without pulling the rearlines - not so with the racekites...

Or is it just the sheer (small) size that makes them able to turn and handle like that ? Most never ride racekites smaller than 11 m2 (me neither).

And you are riding kite trailing edge backwards for a while - cool, have never seen that :naughty:

Respect :D

As said before, stabless or normal won't make a difference, you got skills, like that :rollgrin:

8) PF