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Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

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gmb13
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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby gmb13 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:43 pm

We shall see how it actually rides. I am getting one in sometime around the 15th and will review it in a VLOG. I have built and ridden Canard foils before. The actual way they ride is not so totally different to normal foils. In some ways it could be easier for someone to learn on as it reacts better (more docile) to loading the back foot. It's a lot more like riding a Surf Board than a normal foil, at least this was the case with to ones I have ridden so far. I am really looking forward to testing it out next weekend :-)

--
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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby geron » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:13 pm

It seems the center of rotation in turns is around the rear large wing and therefore it will be easier to do tight turns? (like a surf board)

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby juandesooka » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:57 pm

I am intrigued by this, though not sure if this intrigue is enough to put the $ into it yet. We'll see how the first hand reviews look! Though it is tempting in the holiday season to treat yourself to a nice little gift. ;-)

I am curious about winglets. I have flat G10 stringy wings ... which have little winglets, both front and rear wings. I think this is common with others too, I am told it is for yaw control. I get the sense this isn't needed for curving wings, as the curve accounts for yaw. (And this is just my guess on it.....I may have it wrong)

It doesn't look like winglets are included on this spitfire foil or on the other g10 zeeko wings ... so is this yaw control not a concern for these?

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:04 pm

geron wrote:It seems the center of rotation in turns is around the rear large wing and therefore it will be easier to do tight turns? (like a surf board)
I dont think you can deduce/justify like that.

The front wing lifts on a canard, thus the COE is significantly further forward than the rear wings "normal" COE.

And the mast has to be just somewhat behind the COE, if it has to work/feel right, and pretty sure this has been tested so the mast position on the fuselage is spot on to give the same "correct" balance :naughty:

How it turns ? Only one way to find out :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby juandesooka » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:22 pm

About front foot / back foot weight, below is a quote from Nicholas Zeeko on a French forum. (apologies for bad google translation)
It sounds like it requires more back foot pressure, like a hard turn on a surfboard.

http://kitefoil.forumactif.org/t4311p25 ... rs-relance

For the supports in fact in a straight line, the foil behaves like a conventional foil at the level of the settings.
Someone who knows how to make foil will be a bit confused at first by the 'dynamic' supports. What I mean by dynamics is in the changes of supports (turn, jump etc ...) in this case, a conventional foil to a rise of the pressure of the front leg, here the rise in pressure is on The back leg, since the reflexes must be adapted this takes a few sailings. A bit like when you go from a wing to a puddle to a caisson and vice versa, there are different reflexes to have. Then once taken in hand, it is actually the back leg that works more because it is she who manages the surges in pressures.

I spent months to develop it, tried between 30 and 50 configurations to get the desired result (Sylvain saw me full of times with gear jokes Very Happy ). For my part difficult to go back because it brings so much in my current practice (no race, but freeride engaged). There is a little adaptation to have, we do not look 40nds, but a big banana on the face when we cut a cutback to the Tom Curren (any proportion kept of course)
Also for the waves I recommend mats of 90cm mini because when taking the edges one can much more supported.

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby Randahl » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:25 pm

gbrungra wrote:Does anyone know if this would be a good foil to learn on? I need a foil to learn and then freeride in the light winds of San Diego...

I like the idea of a canard for learning, because it may help with the "porpoising", since when the front wing breaks the surface and loses lift the whole setup should settle back into the water. Sort of a soft-stall effect.

But, I'm not wild about being a guinea pig on a totally new design, that may end up in the scrap heap of history...
Find out who has the community Carafino foil these days and cut your teeth on that. That thing was being passed around stinky's all last year. Or there are probably a few MHL's that people are ready to sell. Mastering the porpoising is a right of passage and I think you'd have a hard time getting around it.

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby ronnie » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:19 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
geron wrote:It seems the center of rotation in turns is around the rear large wing and therefore it will be easier to do tight turns? (like a surf board)
I dont think you can deduce/justify like that.

The front wing lifts on a canard, thus the COE is significantly further forward than the rear wings "normal" COE.

And the mast has to be just somewhat behind the COE, if it has to work/feel right, and pretty sure this has been tested so the mast position on the fuselage is spot on to give the same "correct" balance :naughty:

How it turns ? Only one way to find out :rollgrin:

8) Peter
The one surprising looking thing about it (to me) is that it has a 'mini-mast' under the front wing. My guess was that any vertical part of the fuselage would have been at the back.

It is all so new, that there was very little data available (IMO) to speed up the design, so in a way, it is surprisingly 'normal' looking. :cool2:

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby Zeeko » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:54 pm

Dear All,

firstly I would like to thank you very much about your interest for the New Spitfire hydrofoil.

We spend a lot of time to develop it and i hope you'll love it as it change a lot the way of riding.

I checked some of your questions and I'll try to reply to most of them.
gbrungra wrote:Does anyone know if this would be a good foil to learn on? I need a foil to learn and then freeride in the light winds of San Diego...

I like the idea of a canard for learning, because it may help with the "porpoising", since when the front wing breaks the surface and loses lift the whole setup should settle back into the water. Sort of a soft-stall effect.

But, I'm not wild about being a guinea pig on a totally new design, that may end up in the scrap heap of history...
About the Learning you can learn directly with it. But as it is designed for waves, it is a fast turning foil. But without previous hydrofoil experience it is not a problem need a little more time to get used with it as it is not its first program.
All riders with some experience and habits with a traditional foil, they will need some rides to get used with this new feeling and specially the power management driven by the back foot instead of driven by the front foot usually found on a conventionnal foil. For most different is in the turns and tacks and jibes, here this is the back foot which drive, then you need to control with the back foot, this is the opposite as a conventional hydrofoil.
As Peter Frank write often, you need to train your muscle memory. When you get used, this is a new world of feeling for a hydrofoil.

Additionnaly, there is a very good point about the spitfire, the foil never fly away as the main wing is the back one, this is a very good feature. When you train new tricks, you feel safer.
max wrote:
Macisback wrote:Hi Nico and Andre!


Will you sell the foil only complete or also an upgrade kit (Wings/Fuselage) for owners of the previous alloy foils?

Great job by the way!

I would also be interested in this . . . but I have noticed that the sum of the individual parts price wise (with their other foils) adds up to more than the whole kit.

Loving my white and blue :)
Technically it is possible, but all parts except the mast are different to the white and green hydrofoil, then if you order parts separately it will cost more than a completed foil.
geron wrote:the front wing is smaller because the back wing produces lift as well and the lift of both ad to the total lift; is this unique to this foil? Do all the other directional foil's back wing produces negative lift?
We are not the first to design an hydrofoil with both back and front wings producing lift, but we are the first to design a foil able to carve like this.
In fact the 'canard' foil was the only way we found to develop a foil having extrem carving ability. There is some reason about it:
1- in extrem turns, it appear usually the front wing go off the water (at least one part), on a conventional foil this is the main wing that lift you, then you crash.
With the Spitfire, the main wing is more deeply in the water and this is the stabilizer which go off the water you can still keep the control (not all the time of course, but more than a conventional foil). You can see some example on the video at 1:11 and at 3:08, you'll see (this is very quick) a part of the stabilizer going off the water and I still keep the control of the hydrofoil.
2- The best control in turns in most of the sport is driven by the back foot. This is the case in surfboard, snowboard, windsurf, then there is some reason of it. It is easier to control the power by the back leg than by the front leg, this is more natural.
cglazier wrote:Great to see something new being tried.
They say it is for wave riding so I guess it is slower but more maneuverable than other foils.

I'm looking forward to seeing a review.

;-) CG
I fact this is not a slow hydrofoil. It is not as fast as racing foil, but it is not a slow foil. To compare, my max speed with a white and green hydrofoil is about 30knots, with the spitfire my max speed is about 27knots. The geometry of the foil make it starts sooner (when you design it with the same surfaces of wings), but our choice was not to make it starting sooner, but starting the same and with more carving potential.
Also, When you ride waves, you have 2 main ways of riding them:
Slow down your speed and waveride like in le Morne in Mauritius Island or on Capo Verde (off shore winds) or use your kite and ride and carve fast (this is the case with side on or on shore winds), this Spitfire is designed more in this way of riding, even if you can ride also in side off Wind, but the biggest advantage is side on winds (you also turns your kite during bottom turns and rollers).
I had sometimes the question, but on the video, no part of the video is accelerated, there are only speed effects to slowdown the speed of the video sometimes but we never accelerate it;

Also, the foil create the same lift with 30% smaller wing, it makes it creates less drag (drag is affected by the surface of the wing), it makes you feel the foil less draggy than any other foils with the same mast in low end.
Macisback wrote:Hi Nico and Andre!

Is this foil compatible to the 2015 Slash?
(Mounting position, Straps position?)

Will you sell the foil only complete or also an upgrade kit (Wings/Fuselage) for owners of the previous alloy foils?

Great job by the way!
Yes you can use Zeeko boards since 2015.
My tip is if you have your own location of straps, for the first trials I suggest you to move back your straps by 2.5cm (next insert on your board) and when you'll get used with the Spitfire, you'll keep the same straps location as the other zeeko hydrofoil

About the selling, by now this is only completed foil.
geron wrote:It seems the center of rotation in turns is around the rear large wing and therefore it will be easier to do tight turns? (like a surf board)
Yes exactly, the center of rotation as there is neither winglets or vertical fins is more backward, like a surfboard, even we keep the same mast location.
But center of rotation is not center of effort, this is 2 different centers.
ronnie wrote:
Peter_Frank wrote:
geron wrote:It seems the center of rotation in turns is around the rear large wing and therefore it will be easier to do tight turns? (like a surf board)
I dont think you can deduce/justify like that.

The front wing lifts on a canard, thus the COE is significantly further forward than the rear wings "normal" COE.

And the mast has to be just somewhat behind the COE, if it has to work/feel right, and pretty sure this has been tested so the mast position on the fuselage is spot on to give the same "correct" balance :naughty:

How it turns ? Only one way to find out :rollgrin:

8) Peter
The one surprising looking thing about it (to me) is that it has a 'mini-mast' under the front wing. My guess was that any vertical part of the fuselage would have been at the back.

It is all so new, that there was very little data available (IMO) to speed up the design, so in a way, it is surprisingly 'normal' looking. :cool2:
The foil is dedicated for waves, then the target was to make it turns fast and is predictable during carving. This is why there is no winglet. The mini mast is made to have a firm connexion between the fuselage and the front wing.

Best Regards

Nicolas

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby max » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:34 pm

Does this new foil make the carver wing obsolete?

or

Does the carver have its own special abilities and is still worth purchasing?

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Re: Zeeko Spitfire Hydrofoil

Postby 3InletsWindsports » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:56 am

That's a great post Nicolas,
But already the questions coming are when can those with a previous model Zeeko Alloy get an upgrade kit?
Are there benefits to having say a Green&White foil and a Spitfire in your quiver?
For those foiling strapless, will they notice anything different with their feet positions?


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