Kite line length

[TomW]

Experienced guys:
I'm a noob foiling back N forth. 12 sessions. Still crashing a lot, but getting controlled flights, and see improvement every session. Been kiting 16 years and can fly a kite pretty much blind without thinking about it ( like driving a car).
My life/ spot conditions / ability only allows about one session a week. So I'm always looking for help to advance.

Right now I'm flying my North Mono 12 and 2010 RRD Obsession 9m with 24 m lines.
I've noticed a tendency that both these kites ends up pretty low as I get up and fly. It seems it's kind of natural position kite is seeking. And I have to make steering adjustments, steering kite up higher.

One of my 2 bars has 19+4 m extensions, so I could go down to 19m lines

Would shorter lines offer a noob foiler any advantages?
Perhaps reducing this tendency to fly low, or making it easier to steer kite up?

[haare]

I have both long lines and short lines. Short lines I prefer in summer because it makes start and end of session easier. Long lines I prefer in winter because you have more room to work especially bigger kites (18m foil kite).

In waterstart my short line kite is the one that touches easiest to the water. Longer lines help to keep it higher when you do waterstart.

[Peter_Frank]

Snip...
Would shorter lines offer a noob foiler any advantages?
Perhaps reducing this tendency to fly low, or making it easier to steer kite up?

IMO absolutely no advantages whatsoever, for a newbie, with shorter lines, only loads of disadvantages.

A few experienced (I dont know any in real life, only in here on this forum) like short lines, but most, me included, also use longer lines for "everyday" foiling.

So 24-27 meter is the line length most freeriders use around here.
Some use their "normal" waveride lines 20-23 meter for the ease of it.

And only racers with foilkites use 15-18 m lines.

Must say I have no idea why your kites tend to fly low ? Well, I have one idea...
Havent experienced this myself really, but shorter (or longer) lines will definitely not change this behavior.

Maybe it is because you are so good now Tom (you can ride some), that you ride less powered than in the initial learning phase, and then of course the kites need more pull on the upper bar end to maintain level flight.
So it is all your experience that is actually a problem here - but you just need to ride more, and you will adapt to this quite fast.

PF

[OzBungy]

It's possible that you're a bit under powered. I started riding very small kites and the kite tended to naturally settle quite low. If you're still a newbie you might have the "foiling is for light wind" thing and be riding on very light wind days.

More importantly, don't worry about it. Keep foiling and it will all sort itself out. Foiling is the acquired skill sport on steroids. The more you do it the better you will get. Unfortunately the skills acquisition is quite slow so you have to put in a lot of time to get better.

I think there is a truism in foiling where you get riding and doing stuff and think you've got it sorted. Then you get more experience and find that your early conclusions are completely wrong. All this stuff about big wings and long masts and fancy foot positions and special kites and line lengths. The good guys are good because they have tried harder and longer. Don't overthink it. Just do it. Lots.

PS I have a bar with 32m lines set up on it. It works quite nicely. The best thing is it gets a laugh (in a good way) from the rest of the foiling crew. All part of the fun.

PPS. Foiling seems to be more collegiate than other wind sports. Maybe like kitesurfing in the old days. The other day there were 10 foilers and one surfboard out. It looked surreal to see foilers (and foil kites) spread out all over the place. One of the foilers broke his kite lines and we all converged on the area to check him out and help if we could. He was rescued by a passing boat and escorted in by a flock of foilers.

[cglazier]

... Foiling seems to be more collegiate than other wind sports. Maybe like kitesurfing in the old days. ...

That's what happens here too.
CG

[Horst Sergio]

Would shorter lines offer a noob foiler any advantages?

IMHO just like Peter says:

IMO absolutely no advantages whatsoever, for a newbie, with shorter lines, only loads of disadvantages.

I am actually trying and have tried most line setups combination of 12-32m on Foil kites from 6-15m² with the foil.
Even the very extrem Setup with 15 m² Kite on just 12 m lines worked, and has its special arguments and its fun.
But you already have to be very experienced doing flying tacks and jibes using short lines. For a beginner this would be just dangerous and not helpful.
And If the conditions are difficult, I prefer myself to stay with 9 m² on around 24 m lines, as it is much much easier, wider wind range and safer.

Perhaps reducing this tendency to fly low, or making it easier to steer kite up?

I think I remember this tendency of flying the kite always more down when foiling from my first days. I am sure it has nothing to do with the natural fly down behavior of tube kites, as I also had this when using my foil kites, with low fly down tendency. It is just something that comes some way from being concentrated on the foil and maybe from the wrong intuitiv feeling, that a low kite is better or easier, but it is not.

So if you see that you are steering your kite in the down half of the wind window under 45°, try to concentrate to steer it up again. A to low flying kite will never be able to lift you away from the sharp parts of a foil when falling. And for many maneuvers you have to make a loop starting with flying the kite into the zenith.
If your lines are to short (< 20 m) in these cases, the kite will always endup in the dangerous (under 45°) zone at the bottom of the loop, where it can't lift you anymore, when falling.


Smallest overall Setup ever tried: 6 m² on 12 m, felt terrible, stressful.


Biggest Setup ever tried 15 m² with a system length of around 50 m on a twintip, incredible and relaxing fun, while no wind on the surface and therefore nearly no waves on the sea.

[Barbs]

PF, some racers are now on 12m lines, apparently helps with angles up and downwind...

The line length things is a mystery to me though. Everyone says longer lines are better, but as yet no one has explained why beyond looping the kite, if the kite ends up in the drink wont it make relaunching harder?

I imagine the control is less direct with longer lines, so how is that good? Is it that you have longer between 11o'clock 2 o'clock, so you can hang of the bar longer when switching feet on transitions or something else?

Also. I have just purchased a spotz2 and managed to tip my kite bag onto it snapping off the wing tip, I have repaired it with lots of superglue, is this likely to hold or do I need to send it off for a professional repair .

[Dwight]

The line length things is a mystery to me though. Everyone says longer lines are better, but as yet no one has explained why .....

Longer lines smooth.......everything out. Slower, longer power spikes.

Short, quick, sharp power spikes on shorter lines.

Easier with longer lines.

Unless you're changing direction quickly every few seconds, like when surfing, you don't need quick reaction short lines.

[Starsky]

I played around with lines longer than standard (28m) last year on PF's general advice and didn't like it much. It does do pretty much everything he mentions. If gives good low end range without much sacrifice in top end, its easy to keep the kite high, it gives a bigger window in which to loop/start and can facilitate learning to transition. He says there is no downside, but like every parameter in the sport I found the softer steering, the slower timing and the general need for such a large spot to launch and land were draw backs that made it less attractive. Still have a few sets of extensions, but they only get considered when it been really light for a really long time, and hence only with my biggest kite. They get very little use. I pretty much don't think about foiling until its a solid 10 knots so the standard 23m lines are what I use most.

Foiling has however redefined what is a kite spot for me. Now that I am drift launching more frequently, short lines have a new place in my quiver. So much nicer to drift launch on short lines (17m). The draw backs being less bottom end and quicker timing for transitions. This is entirely different from short lines on big race kites. Im talking smaller 6-9m inflatables. Where longer lines make for more utility in the kites lower end, shorter lines shift the kites sweet spot and comfort/control to the higher end of its range. I don't really like to use my big kite on short lines. I get why racers do that, but its really limiting to free riding. For my style it only suits small quick kites that can still loop well in a small window. My 12 feels really limited on small lines, where my 6 would feel spongy and weird on 28m lines. Just makes sense that line length correlates well with both kite size and wind strength. For people interested in free ride foiling, there is likely a strong point of diminishing returns. Shorter than 17m and even smaller kites begin to feel limited for downlooping, and the timing of everything begins to feel really critical.

I would advise all foilers to experiment with line length. Start with longer lines, and once you are comfortable with your flying transitions and can foil in things like small waves, give shorter lines a try. Doesn't take long to figure out what you like and don't like about both.

I don't jump on foil, so may limit my advice.

[Horst Sergio]

A few experienced (I dont know any in real life, only in here on this forum) like short lines, but most, me included, also use longer lines for "everyday" foiling.

Hi Peter,

had a 15m² on 12m and a 13m² on 15m, Race-Style-Setup, the last time and decided to stay with something in between these sizes. But just for perfect conditions with around 9-14 knt. Not for difficult or very low and even not for higher winds.
The joy is to have a kitesetup (already starting form 9 knts) that is 100 % full powered, but does not feel like a big kite on long lines at low wind, but feels like a small kite in high wind, as it changes side of wind window, when tacking or jumping, very fast. The setup also allows to go very fast and controlled, maybe because of its huge mass (big foil kite with additionally around 4 kg air inside) connected very direct on short lines.
And it is also possible to boost very high. Then in the air if you depower the kite feels more like a paraglider when opening the brake. The kite/parachute accelerates immediately to the wind window without to much swing time and you start to glide against the wind.

Only disadvantage apart from the small range of best use is: I think I have to go back and use a seat harness, as it fits better to this racing-paragliding style with a lot of strong pull upwards when pushing hard and jumping.


Also agree with disadvantages and advantages starsky wrote. But spongy feeling on long lines is also a lot about the right line dimension which can be to thick and to thin.

And to give an impression what is jumping on short lines about and possible, unfortunately not me but Florian Gruber from the WorldCup: