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Too much power?!

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Pedro Marcos
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Too much power?!

Postby Pedro Marcos » Mon May 29, 2017 12:09 pm

So yesterday it was about enough wind to go on a 9-10m (8-10 knots), but a friend was with a 17m FLITE on the beach and i went to try it.

After 17 years of kiting i discovered a whole new world of feelings... this hidrofoil its just fantastic...

So normaly on a TT, when you edge and at the same time deepower a really big kite, you slow down, until eventualy you will stop. On the hidrofoil, when i edged the thing (getting really angled on the mast for the first time) and at the same time deepowered the kite, instead of slowing down, it was creating soooo much apparent wind and accelerating alot until i was not able to handle the speed/power and crashed! So i was overpowered with a 17m in 8-10 knots!?!?!? :jump: :jump:

Now i understand the Race guys, going super angled with those big foil kites with short lines and really close to the water.

Any tips to control this "overpowered" feeling other then pratice? Will a more performance foil help or make things even harder (more speed)? Or maybe a foil kite is easier to control in this situation when compared to a big LEI ?

Thanks!

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Too much power?!

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon May 29, 2017 2:51 pm

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 12:09 pm
So yesterday it was about enough wind to go on a 9-10m (8-10 knots), but a friend was with a 17m FLITE on the beach and i went to try it.

After 17 years of kiting i discovered a whole new world of feelings... this hidrofoil its just fantastic...

So normaly on a TT, when you edge and at the same time deepower a really big kite, you slow down, until eventualy you will stop. On the hidrofoil, when i edged the thing (getting really angled on the mast for the first time) and at the same time deepowered the kite, instead of slowing down, it was creating soooo much apparent wind and accelerating alot until i was not able to handle the speed/power and crashed! So i was overpowered with a 17m in 8-10 knots!?!?!? :jump: :jump:

Now i understand the Race guys, going super angled with those big foil kites with short lines and really close to the water.

Any tips to control this "overpowered" feeling other then pratice? Will a more performance foil help or make things even harder (more speed)? Or maybe a foil kite is easier to control in this situation when compared to a big LEI ?

Thanks!

A foil kite is much easier to control indeed, compared to a big LEI, as it flies much further into the wind, so when you stay with the kite aloft on the beach, there is virtually no pull, eventhough you are maxed out or overpowered on the water - where a LEI will feel big even before you go out, a huge difference.

A smaller and/or faster wing also helps control yes.

Being in control when powered means you go really hard upwind so your legs are burning (pushing hard), or really deep downwind to burn off speed and stay in control.

Avoid the kite low halfwind courses :roll:

Flying the kite really high is mostly a survival mode, and it does not work well when strapless as you get lofted off your board :wink:

A 17 m2 is definitely "overpowered" for most in 8-10 knots, which is why hardly anyone uses bigger than 12 or 13 m2 LEI kites.
Only in marginal winds when special superlight no or onestrut kites, some uses these - others dont as they get too powered too fast even here.

I am getting overpowered (and rig down) with my 12 m2 from 9 knots @77 kg, but that is strapless freeride - others hold bigger kites up to 15-16 knots if they like to race - two different worlds :rollgrin:

8) PF

danidr
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Re: Too much power?!

Postby danidr » Mon May 29, 2017 3:41 pm

It will depend on your kite and/or foil, also the amount of current in your area (it can make a lot of difference for the waterstart on marginal winds!), but from my experience (freeride, not racing), anything over 12m is overkill. With a 12m and decent skill (not pro) you will be able to go as long as the kite flies. Granted, you'll also swim back to shore as soon as the wind drops a very tiny bit.

I find I'm using the 9m most of the time, even in quite marginal winds. The ability of being able to move the kite faster can compensate for lack of park and ride. Also, in my area, wind normally starts picking up in the morning and by midday it's quite stronger, so by going on the 9m I can ride for longer without changing kite.

The type of kite will make a lot of difference. I own Drifters (surf) and Switchblades (allround). The switchblades tend to go closer to the edge of the window, and makes it quite difficult to control once wind starts getting stronger and you generate a lot of apparent wind. The drifter on the other hand, I find extremely comfortable for foiling, as it has a very fast depower, turns quickly without brutal pull, and will make going downwind very easy without having to do loops, as it drifts very well. It doesn't go upwind that good, but I find that a non issue as the foil will make up for that.

When overpowered you can put the kite higher and wait till you loose some speed. In my fish foil I can also edge harder upwind when doing this and it looses speed quite easily. Going downwind will also kill some speed, but it takes time. The big problem with a big kite once wind picks up is that any small movement will generate power and more speed. Id say learn this techniques as they are useful for going out on a smaller kite that is more manageable:

- Learn to waterstart with a double sine going left and right of the whole wind window One stroke to get on the board, and another one to get going. Makes a lot of difference in light wind.
- Alternatively, and if comfortable, learn to waterstart with a loop. Not a down/front loop, but a back hand loop with a big radius. This gets you going pretty solidly. Disadvantage: mess it up and you risk going over the board and to the foil.
- Get speed and then head upwind. This will depend a lot on the foil. The foil fish doesn't like to accelerate when edged hard upwind. In low winds sometimes it's necessary to gain enough speed and then point upwind. Also, when going upwind, feel when you're decelerating and make sure to regain speed before you loose too much to fall of the foil.

Good luck!!

hshim007
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Re: Too much power?!

Postby hshim007 » Mon May 29, 2017 5:21 pm

Welcome to the world of hydrofoiling.

I think the first thing that people need to realize is that hydrofoiling is a very specific style of kiteboarding requiring a very specific type of kite. There are racers, mega jumpers, freestyle TT riders, wave riders, cruisers and....yes foilers; and even then there are freestyle foil boarders and foil racers; they all use different types of kites to get the most out of their subspecialty.

I completely understand that early on you just wanna get up on the board and foil and not hurt yourself. So as a beginner, I would suggest sticking with a LEI and fly a wave kite that depowers easily; fly a kite with a little more power than you will ultimately need to start just so you can do a small down stroke to get you up on the board and foil. I personally believe you should have a pretty fast moving kite that generates power on the down/up strokes or looping to get you going but then will fly happily once your up and moving. Foil kites might get you up easily but then you'll likely have to adjust the trim very quickly to not get overpowered. As a beginner you already have enough things to think about without having to adjust the trim strap.

My personal preference (and I haven't been shy about saying this on the forum is that for general riding (not jumping)) are Boardriding Maui Clouds. They are really a very kitefoil specific kite for on the water freestyle (not racing or mega air). They give a lot of power to get you up but have tons of depower once you're and generating a lot of apparent wind when riding.

Keep those foot straps loose or ditch them so you don't hurt yourself as you're learning!

Foil on!

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Re: Too much power?!

Postby gbrungra » Tue May 30, 2017 6:57 am

Im learning to foil right now. Two days ago I was out in 10-12mph conditions with a 17m (fully depowered) and 35m lines. An experienced foiler was playing nearby on a 6m ozone edge and short lines (and a low volume board!). He had to loop the kite hard 2-5 times to get going, but it goes to show how little power foils need once the rider is experienced.

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Re: Too much power?!

Postby phlow » Wed May 31, 2017 10:06 pm

I would agree that a 17m is too much for almost anyone. You will quickly become overpowered once you develop any apparent wind at all, (which you will very quickly once you are gaining speed on plane). I'm 100kg and i can go on a 12m NEO in 7 or 8 knots and a 9m in 10-11 knots. You just have to learn to either downloop to get on plane or just send it back and dive it super aggressively to pulse right up onto plane (what i do) for waterstarts. a big slow moving 17 will be nearly impossible to do transitions on, most likely.

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Too much power?!

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed May 31, 2017 11:10 pm

I tried the 17m just for the experience, and to confirm that is pointless to have one :)

Yesterday i had a blast on a 7m Slingshot Fuel in 12 knots with the Moses Fluente 2017, zero pull when foiling, just using the power stroke of the C kite to get some speed and then parking the kite and trying some fun stuff .

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Re: Too much power?!

Postby dylan* » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:59 pm

in 12 knots i am riding a 10m.. not sure about the upper end of the range because by that point i am riding a surfboard and not a foil

below 12 knots the biggest kite i've ever wanted to be on is my 12m envy. once you get to the point where you don't have enough power to get up, a bigger kite doesn't really matter because the wind is too marginal to really fly an LEI anyway. I've ridden a 14m and it was ok, maybe gave me an extra half a knot on the low end from my 12. Tried a 15 and it was too big, as soon as I got up and got moving I was overpowered.

I've heard foil kites are different in terms of the power you can control, but I've never tried one so I can't say.

My stats: 155 lbs, decent nearshore current (the ocean) and the weakest wind density there is

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Re: Too much power?!

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:21 pm

For me it's about flying the biggest wing possible as fast as possible overhead while keeping the foil in the water :-D

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Re: Too much power?!

Postby DukeSilver » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:54 am

From my limited experience as a beginner foiler of about 2.5 months, I think even a 12m tube kite would give me very little benefit. I'm 80kgs and riding a Hover Glide and Dwarfcraft 54 strapless. Once it's blowing 10-12kts, my 9m Catalyst does the job. Once it hits 15kts, out comes the 6m Catalyst. 20kts+ and my 3.5m C5 Cloud is up to the task. I just don't want to go out in winds below 10kts as these conditions tend to be too fickle and frustrating for a beginner with a LEI. As someone already mentioned, when the wind gets that light, it only has to drop 1 or 2kts and your kite falls out of the sky and is un-launchable. My 3 kite quiver has me covered from 11kts to 35kts+ and I'm really happy with this spread. The summer sea breezes in Western Australia average around 18 - 25kts, so my 6m and 3.5m kites will likely get the most use.


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