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First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

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jeromeL
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First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby jeromeL » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:31 pm

UPDATE in new thread: viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2396624

===============================
Got to try foiling for the first time yesterday.

Was anxious the el stubbo would be hard to learn on but it's really easy, you pretty much "plane"right away so I didn't think more board volume would make a difference.

Anyway for first session was pretty nice.
Basically tried to get up keeping board on water surface, after one hour I could ride it back and forth going upwind.
Second hour I could foil for 40 feet or so and touch back down.
I didn't think it was too hard going downwind with board on water surface, just make sure keep kite trim and high else with speed foil go up

What really helped me is to stand up all the way on foil instead of flexing knees. When flexing knee the board can pop up without control and improper weight balance.
I flex slightly front knee to bring weight forward when I want to get foil back down.
Attachments
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Last edited by jeromeL on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

opie
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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby opie » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:36 pm

That's a super impressive first time out, especially for someone kiting since 2014.

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jeromeL
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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby jeromeL » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:19 pm

That's a small video of the first time foil went up:

phpBB [video]


By the end of the session I could bring t back down but GoPro died. I have plenty of wipeout footage though ;)

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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby bigtone667 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:42 pm

Well done.

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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:40 pm

Nice :D

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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby lovethepirk » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:34 pm

jeromeL wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:31 pm
What really helped me is to stand up all the way on foil instead of flexing knees. When flexing knee the board can pop up without control and improper weight balance.
I flex slightly front knee to bring weight forward when I want to get foil back down.
Great first sesh! My progression seem to follow what you have done except I struggled for 2 sessions before I got where you are.

My first goal was to ride the board flat, then 2nd goal was to get upwind like this, 3rd goal was foiling.

A couple things I learned and had to unlearn during the process: When I learned to ride the board flat without falling I was standing way to erect and upper body leaning learning way forward...stiff back leg. Then when I wanted to go upwind, I leaned back and edged in the same stiff legged position...yep it worked, but had to unlearn this. Not sure if this process is a necessary evil, but it didn't take me too long to go thru all this and unlearn some of the bad technique.

With all the riding with weight forward and stiff legs, when I foiled temporarily, my failure was a lot of loud board slaps on the water. Not many crashes just a ton of board impacts, up down up down etc.

It really clicked when the moment that foil come up and, now just prior, that both legs need to be bent in a wicked athletic position(back knee bent slightly angled forward) and for me I am driving as much back foot pressure as front foot. I had a 45 minute sesh yesterday and was up almost the entire time. Staying up in my newbie world now is a game of balance b/w back and front foot pressure. I'm now learning how tough it is to go downwind, it's like you are on ice skates.

I'm sure as we advance the athletic knee position can be abandoned to take a break or put the foiling in chill mode, but for me right now when that foil comes up it's game on and I feel like I'm kinda doing individual leg presses and someones adding and taking away 100's of pounds every other second and I am always balancing what the water or foil is telling me to do.

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jeromeL
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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby jeromeL » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:07 pm

lovethepirk wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:34 pm

Great first sesh! My progression seem to follow what you have done except I struggled for 2 sessions before I got where you are.

My first goal was to ride the board flat, then 2nd goal was to get upwind like this, 3rd goal was foiling.

A couple things I learned and had to unlearn during the process: When I learned to ride the board flat without falling I was standing way to erect and upper body leaning learning way forward...stiff back leg. Then when I wanted to go upwind, I leaned back and edged in the same stiff legged position...yep it worked, but had to unlearn this. Not sure if this process is a necessary evil, but it didn't take me too long to go thru all this and unlearn some of the bad technique.

With all the riding with weight forward and stiff legs, when I foiled temporarily, my failure was a lot of loud board slaps on the water. Not many crashes just a ton of board impacts, up down up down etc.

It really clicked when the moment that foil come up and, now just prior, that both legs need to be bent in a wicked athletic position(back knee bent slightly angled forward) and for me I am driving as much back foot pressure as front foot. I had a 45 minute sesh yesterday and was up almost the entire time. Staying up in my newbie world now is a game of balance b/w back and front foot pressure. I'm now learning how tough it is to go downwind, it's like you are on ice skates.

I'm sure as we advance the athletic knee position can be abandoned to take a break or put the foiling in chill mode, but for me right now when that foil comes up it's game on and I feel like I'm kinda doing individual leg presses and someones adding and taking away 100's of pounds every other second and I am always balancing what the water or foil is telling me to do.
Thanks for tips. My goals were the same as you but I found out that going upwind wasn't an issue, as long as the board is riding flat, it's going upwind, actually the upwind angle is way more than twintip even with board on surface. I say board on surface of water but perhaps it's not flat and has a small "edge" to it. My friend who learned on liquid force also said that at first when he tried to "edge" to go upwind the foil would shoot up. To go upwind I don't try to edge, I just point the board upwind, I guess I turn my hip. Not sure exactly how you control where board is heading but it feels pretty intuitive for me.

I think you are right about leg bent, I tried a few times with a tiny bend in both knees and it felt pretty good. Also when you watch racer you see a lot of bend, but for me bent leg meant a lot of back foot pressure and all the bad muscle memory kicks in. Less bent leg minimize effect of bad muscle memory for now.

As far as foot pressure, it doesn't work for me, If I push front foot the opposite happens, I have to think about shifting weight forward instead.
I don't really feel like adding and taking away 100 pound of pressure every other second works for me. so far I try not to keep balance and if I fee foil go up I transfer weight forward but I am not pushing with foot every other second. Well I guess once you are experienced that's what happens or perhaps my foil is way stabler than yours, you said you had some race setup in another thread?

Going further downwind looks really hard, it's like you said, but I can point a bit downwind keeping kite high and doesn't feel too unstable.


I think I will keep foil all the way back for next session, doesn't seem hard to get up on foil with that setting so I don't need to move it forward yet.
Target for next session will be to get up and back down in controlled way for next session. Once I can ride for 100 feet I will try to play around with small S curve.

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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:54 pm

A good chill posture when you're not going hard is to pull your rear foot out of the back foot strap and put it really far forward standing tall and straight over the foil with the kite high.

Also keep in mind that when you lock your front knee all your weight transfers downward to the board through a straight leg. When you bend your front knee, you're not really pushing harder you're actually taking weight off the front of the board by collapsing your "suspension" a bit. This was an area that was very counter intuitive when I was learning, I thought if I wanted to push harder I'd have to essentially flex my muscles and push downward like a squat, but like you mentioned jeromeL, you're really just locking your legs and shifting your hips forward.

If you watch racers like Maxime and Johnny Heineken go hard upwind, they're trying to maintain a locked out posture and only bending a knee insofar as it allows them to maintain level ride height and keep the nose from pearling into the water.

Some great shots of poo stance:
phpBB [video]
Last edited by Mossy 757 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby juandesooka » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:59 pm

Right on! Love hearing stoking reports of those "getting it" moments.

LTP: what you describe is how I remembered it. Those first sessions had knees bent more than normal, crouched down a bit, low center of gravity, "caveman stance"... for maximum balance and leg strength. The straight up finesse stance can come later. Interesting thing too, in that caveman stance stage I eventually struggled with staying on foil consistently ... and I remember some advice I got -- at that point you need to focus on being "loose", unclench the muscles, relax, and then all of a sudden it comes together. Maybe at that point it's like dancing, too self conscious and you're not doing it right ... feel the music and just groove, your body's unconscious balance takes over!

One more thing from those early days: I distinctly remember the session where I realized that slight bar adjustments transferred directly to foil height adjustment. Pull in bar = more power = rising foil. Sheet out = less power = dropping foil. Just like the stick on a plane. "Holy crap, I am flying!" Hope you experience that soon, or maybe you already have. :-) :-) :-)

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jeromeL
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Re: First session on Zeeko + shinn el stubbo

Postby jeromeL » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:07 pm

juandesooka wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:59 pm
One more thing from those early days: I distinctly remember the session where I realized that slight bar adjustments transferred directly to foil height adjustment. Pull in bar = more power = rising foil. Sheet out = less power = dropping foil. Just like the stick on a plane. "Holy crap, I am flying!" Hope you experience that soon, or maybe you already have. :-) :-) :-)
I don't use back foot strap, only fronts to help put foil in right position for water start.

Thanks for tip, that's interesting about power, definitely felt that speed meant foiling going higher. I found my self pulling all the way on the trim as soon as I would water start, it also removed the pull on hook which forces me to push hard on bag leg by mistake...
sometimes I would just relax and foil would just head straight leveled but I knew I wasn't in total control ;) shifting weight slightly forward brought it down but no muscle memory yet ;(

I feel like I can control yaw pretty well, pitch a tiny bit and roll not at all. Roll is scary especially when it rolls away from me and you fall on foil.. Usually I am lucky and no roll input comes in but once it starts going one way I can't recover and pray I crash away from foil.


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