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Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

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gmb13
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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby gmb13 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:18 pm

That is Slingshots Surf Foil. not a kitefoil.

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gmb13
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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby gmb13 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:25 pm

RadDrDuke wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:56 pm
Can you mount a lower aspect foil (LF, slingshot, etc.) on a shortboard surfboard and paddle in to small waves and get up on foil?

Or do you need to have a very low aspect wing (like the GoFoil) to get up on the foil just paddling into waves?
We have tried it for years and failed to do so and with lots of people getting injured in the process. There is a reason that Alex (GoFoil) started a revolution with his huge wing, it works.

I personally do not know anyone who has managed to catch small waves (under 6 foot) like we do know of the Surf foils, with a low AR KiteFoil. The profile depth of a Go Foil "KAI" is about 4 times that of a normal kite wing. The newer wings being developed are even thicker and have even more surface area.

Pumping a Go Foil type foil is way easier than even the biggest Kitefoil wings that exist.

Also the new Surf Foils have no super sharp edges. So when you mess up, you don't get hurt as bad, or hurt someone else. If I saw someone in the lineup with me with a Kitefoil, 90cm mast I would tell him to get the hell out of the water.

--
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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:35 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:16 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:02 pm
RadDrDuke wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:56 pm
Can you mount a lower aspect foil (LF, slingshot, etc.) on a shortboard surfboard and paddle in to small waves and get up on foil?

Or do you need to have a very low aspect wing (like the GoFoil) to get up on the foil just paddling into waves?

Definitely, yes :thumb:

It will work even better than the very low aspect wings, you can get up earlier and it will be more stable, it will not be as lively when turning though :naughty:

8) PF
Have you actually done it Peter? Cause no one I actually know has managed it and not for lack of trying.

--
Gunnar
No, I cant say that I have Gunnar... (Only when pumping a windfoil to foil on a wave, but not the same no)

My point was just, that a similar sized wing compared to a super low AR surf hydrofoil wing, higher AR, will definitely work.

Just like you can see the Slingshot in the vid, quite high AR :naughty:

8) PF

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby gmb13 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:18 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:35 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:16 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:02 pm



Definitely, yes :thumb:

It will work even better than the very low aspect wings, you can get up earlier and it will be more stable, it will not be as lively when turning though :naughty:

8) PF
Have you actually done it Peter? Cause no one I actually know has managed it and not for lack of trying.

--
Gunnar
No, I cant say that I have Gunnar... (Only when pumping a windfoil to foil on a wave, but not the same no)

My point was just, that a similar sized wing compared to a super low AR surf hydrofoil wing, higher AR, will definitely work.

Just like you can see the Slingshot in the vid, quite high AR :naughty:

8) PF
It's not the AR that is important. It's the surface area and profile. That slingshot, the gofoil, Takuma, all have about double wet surface area thanks to the massive profile depth. The same wing with a "Kite"
profile cannot be compared to a Surf wing.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:29 pm

So true, the camber and area are the most important, as long as not too low AR where lift suffers.

A typical kitefoil wing say an E205 profile got a Cl max around 1.0
The most exteme cambered wings can have a max around 1.5 so a lot better yes (the thickness does not mean anything, it actually lowers the max lift) and corresponds to 50 % more surface area.
Eventhough such an extreme amount of camber is most likely not used I think, of other reasons.

And as the light wind kitefoil wings offered to us today are between 800 and 900 cm2 so quite big, some for windfoil and similar even bigger, meaning they would work for surf foiling I am pretty sure, but not for "newbees" :D

8) PF

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby Macisback » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:37 pm

Shame, sounded like a good idea in the first place.
But a Zeeko Carver with 60cm Mast and a huge SUP - you think that could work?

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby gmb13 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:14 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:29 pm
So true, the camber and area are the most important, as long as not too low AR where lift suffers.

A typical kitefoil wing say an E205 profile got a Cl max around 1.0
The most exteme cambered wings can have a max around 1.5 so a lot better yes (the thickness does not mean anything, it actually lowers the max lift) and corresponds to 50 % more surface area.
Eventhough such an extreme amount of camber is most likely not used I think, of other reasons.

And as the light wind kitefoil wings offered to us today are between 800 and 900 cm2 so quite big, some for windfoil and similar even bigger, meaning they would work for surf foiling I am pretty sure, but not for "newbees" :D

8) PF
Trust me. Those 800 and 900 cm2 wings you are talking about don't work well, even for a good rider. They just do not have that same solid lift that a surf foil has.

I also believe that the surf foil wings are the future of kite wave foiling. Same as surfboards revolutionised and replaced twin tips for wave riding with kites.

I also pretty much teach kite foiling on the GoFoil and Takuma V100 Foils exclusively now as they make it some much easier to learn on. They just seem to lock in once you get up, and they are also very resistant to stalling, even after breaching. You can pretty much ride the top part of the wing out of the water without it ventilating and dropping you.

This is one of my recent students on a GoFoil "Kai". She is about 30 minutes into her lesson.

phpBB [video]


Here are some close ups of the Go Foil:

Image

Image

Image







--
Gunnar
Last edited by gmb13 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby gmb13 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:19 pm

Macisback wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:37 pm
Shame, sounded like a good idea in the first place.
But a Zeeko Carver with 60cm Mast and a huge SUP - you think that could work?
Nope. Tried it. Almost killed myself.

Image



Also tried with the windfoil proto that has 900cm2. Under the Carver in this pic.

Image

Also almost killed myself.

The problem is that these wings are just too damn fast. Even if you get up on the foil in the wave, you end up outrunning the wave really easily. As these don't pump so well, you find it hard to get back into the wave and then get pounded.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby bragnouff » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:07 am

Thanks for the pics! Never realized how chunky that GoFoil front wing is actually!
You're more likely to suffer from blunt force trauma than cuts from this foil!

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Re: Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil

Postby alexrider » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:37 am

gmb13 wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:19 pm
Macisback wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:37 pm
Shame, sounded like a good idea in the first place.
But a Zeeko Carver with 60cm Mast and a huge SUP - you think that could work?
Nope. Tried it. Almost killed myself.
...

Also tried with the windfoil proto that has 900cm2. Under the Carver in this pic.
...

Also almost killed myself.

The problem is that these wings are just too damn fast. Even if you get up on the foil in the wave, you end up outrunning the wave really easily. As these don't pump so well, you find it hard to get back into the wave and then get pounded.

--
Gunnar
I think a possible "issue" with Zeeko wings is the angle of attack relative to the board (and I assume it's the same with your SUP experiment). You need more speed to get the required lift. One reason I'd like to experiment changing the wing/fuse/stab combo angle relative to the board, is to make the riding position more comfortable, and hopefully the take off and landing more gradual. At the moment the nose of the board (AirWave 5'1, btw) is pointing high resulting in my front leg bent and the back one straight. Might look cool, but definitely not comfortable.
I've been foiling with the Carver wing for a month with the expectation it would fly as slow as my learning HF (Cab DA) and just switched to the 535 cm2 Freeride wing. To my astonishment, I didn't notice difference in the bottom speed (just as slow, and nearly as slow as the Cab DA). Furthermore, I found the Freeride giving more buffeting warning prior to stall than the Carver. The relative thicknesses of the chords could be the explanation.
On an another related opinion in this, I don't agree with Peter Frank "It will work even better than the very low aspect wings, you can get up earlier and it will be more stable, it will not be as lively when turning though :naughty:"
The aspect ratio shouldn't affect'the turning (yawing) speed. The length of the fuselage and the surface of the vertical appendages do.


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