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one strut vs strutless

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Topaz
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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby Topaz » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:14 am

I just got a second hand 2014-15 Naish Trip 12m to use it for foiling.
I used it three times so far with the hydrofoil.

First time, the wind was around 6-8 knots. I flew it on the beach. It barely floated and drop a lot. Relaunching from the beach wasn't an issue when the gust picked up a bit. Didn't go in the water.

Second time, the wind was 8-10 knots. The kite flew well. I had to be careful not to drop it. Had a nice session. It turned slowly, but decently. No flapping.
No problem to self launch or land.

Third time, wind between 9-12 knots. I pulled the trim strap to have the bar closer. The kite had nice power for the foil. It flew very stable and never tried to drop. It flapped a bit on the gusts and when turning.
At 12 knots, self landing wasn't a problem. I was by myself on the beach. I grabbed the upper center line and walked to the kite.

I also used the kite once on a TT just to try it. Wind was 13-17 knots.
The board was 140 Cab.Custom with the small 15mm fins. No problem keeping upwind.
I had a nice session. The kite flapped a bit on the gusts and it felt weird, but it performed well for free riding.
Not the best kite for TT, but usable. Now it's also my back up kite between the 10m and 14m.

It doesn't pack as tight as I had heard. Maybe I had too high expectations. It packs as a 10m.
It feels light though. My scale read 7.75 lbs / 3.52 kg
I'm happy with it. I'll keep it.

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cglazier
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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby cglazier » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 am

My experiences with strutless kites (the Cloud) were not very positive. They are fast kites but they do not do well in higher winds (kite flapping and jerky). They do have a retro appeal with a very simple control bar and light kite construction. They remind me of my first Wipika kite in 1999. Luckily I never had to relaunch a Cloud but my friends say can be done eventually with skill.. unless it's in waves. I don't want to offend the Cloud cult following but strutless kites are not what I would recommend. Even Naish has now discontinued it's strutless kite.

Normally I fly foil kites (Chrono 2) in light or medium winds but there are some sketchy launch spots and wave locations where I prefer an inflatable kite. A good option for very light wind which I chose (and a lot of kiters in Maui seem to have chosen this year) is a one strut kite like the new Naish Boxer or the North Mono or others. The single strut kite still is a very light kite but with much better wind range and relaunch capabilities. The single strut holds the kite shape, not as well as a 3 or 5 strut kite but much better than a strutless one. None of these kites will go upwind as well or go as fast as a 3 or 5 strut kite but sometimes that doesn't matter.

:wink: CG

hshim007
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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby hshim007 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:53 am

cglazier wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 am
My experiences with strutless kites (the Cloud) were not very positive. They are fast kites but they do not do well in higher winds (kite flapping and jerky). They do have a retro appeal with a very simple control bar and light kite construction. They remind me of my first Wipika kite in 1999. Luckily I never had to relaunch a Cloud but my friends say can be done eventually with skill.. unless it's in waves. I don't want to offend the Cloud cult following but strutless kites are not what I would recommend. Even Naish has now discontinued it's strutless kite.

Normally I fly foil kites (Chrono 2) in light or medium winds but there are some sketchy launch spots and wave locations where I prefer an inflatable kite. A good option for very light wind which I chose (and a lot of kiters in Maui seem to have chosen this year) is a one strut kite like the new Naish Boxer or the North Mono or others. The single strut kite still is a very light kite but with much better wind range and relaunch capabilities. The single strut holds the kite shape, not as well as a 3 or 5 strut kite but much better than a strutless one. None of these kites will go upwind as well or go as fast as a 3 or 5 strut kite but sometimes that doesn't matter.

:wink: CG
I agree the first couple generations of Clouds weren't that great. Yes the Kites flapped and jerked a bit much, especially the larger sizes. Having ridden every generation, I think BRM finally nailed it with the new D kites. Way smoother, less fluttering when depowering and restarts are super fast. I still like the idea of the one strut design (I had the original ONE by air rush) and thought it was a really good light wind option. In terms of small and light packing for travel though, the strutless can't be beat. H

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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby revhed » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:46 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:31 pm
It is almost never a question about the "right" term - it is always a question about what it is called in the real world.
THAT is what counts - what "the world" decides to call things, and not what is correct.
So what do you and your friends call the vertical structural inflated anti compression member on a kite as posted here?
And just because the "world" is ignorant and wrong does not mean it "counts"!
R H

max
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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby max » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:42 pm

cglazier wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 am
My experiences with strutless kites (the Cloud) were not very positive. ... Luckily I never had to relaunch a Cloud but my friends say can be done eventually with skill.. unless it's in waves. I don't want to offend the Cloud cult following but strutless kites are not what I would recommend. Even Naish has now discontinued it's strutless kite.

hi Chris . . .

I always enjoy reading your posts and generally agree but not fully with this one.

Admittedly, I have only flown the 3.5 and 5.5 C5 generation kites (not in waves but in rough ocean swell) and never had any issues with relaunch. Maybe it is different with the bigger sizes and lighter winds.

Also, I have a 9m Gong Strutless and it has to be one of the best relaunching kites I have ever owned . . . pull a rear line and that is it. (again, not used in waves). Both can be made to fly backwards easily so reverse launch easy as . . . but I have only done this on land.


Any assumption that all strut-less kites fly basically the same is silly. I have not used the Naish Trip yet ( a friend has just bought a 10m) but I know from the Clouds and the Gong, that there is less in common that you would think . . . each have their own strengths, just in different areas.

I would suggest that the instant depower that I get with the Cloud is not a given with all strutless kites and probably not as easily obtained once struts are added.

I have not flown the latest D clouds so can only really comment with what i have read from others so I will leave it.


I do agree that strutless kites are not for everyone but the small Clouds do make an awesome match with my Zeeko Alu and carver wing :D

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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby Dwight » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:58 pm

My view
Foiling mostly.....strutless wins
Foiling and waves equally split .....single strut wins
Ideal two quivers....3 strut for waves....strutless for foiling

I ride GONG strutless, and GONG 3 strut wave

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Starsky
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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby Starsky » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:11 pm

Revhed, you gotta let it go.

People use language incorrectly constantly. If you constantly correct them, your likely to come across as a bit of a tool. The best you can do is use the correct terms yourself and give up the mission of policing everyone else.

Peter is just trying to make a point. One that many others have tried in various other ways.

It's a strut. We get it, but like your point, there are other "struts" in our conversations, so you really are on a mission of semantics. When someone refers to a mast in the context of hydrofoils, we all understand what they mean and move on. You're the only one getting hung up on it.

Back to the topic.

Had the C.5 out yesterday in the midst of its range, and it gave nothing to nit pick about. The range on the bigger ones has a pretty hard ceiling and range grows as you go down in size. More importantly, for those with no VMG or speed criteria in their goals, there's a lot to like that sets them apart from traditional kites. It comes down to how you ride. Curvilinear foiling is what they suit. The straighter you ride, the less likely you are to enjoy them.

I think there is a difference between a single and no strut. The luffable center canopy makes for a specific character. I'm partial to the idea of a two strut kite as a better compromise for those wanting to hedge their bets on overall range canopy noise and relaunch. The Naish Ride is an underrated kite for foiling. Weight wise, two small tip struts are likely less material than a single larger diameter full length strut. A bit silly for Naish to build both, when they could have simplified and marketed the ride in the direction of the new boxer, but I guess kiteboarding is a victim of itself and companies feel a constant need to re-invent and launch something "new".

A lot of freeride and wave interested foilers would do well with a Naish ride in their quiver and can likely find them at a lower cost than the new Boxer or North Mono.

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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby max » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:15 pm

Dwight wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:58 pm
My view
Foiling mostly.....strutless wins
Foiling and waves equally split .....single strut wins
Ideal two quivers....3 strut for waves....strutless for foiling

I ride GONG strutless, and GONG 3 strut wave


hi Dwight . . . Agree fully.

you probably do not remember but you gave me great advice when I was buying an AR5 9.5 as my first inflatable kite to learn on. The first Naish 4 line :)


I have tossed and turned so to say with regard to single strut kites like the North mono.

But have settled on Strutless for foiling and 3 strut for waves and free ride.


As for the Gong 9m Strutless, I have the bridle set on default middle knot and rear lines on fastest setting . . . but it still feels slow on the turn though I am still getting used to it. Turn well I think when i use some rear line tension and hard pull on the bar . . . OR . . . am i doing it wrong Dwight?

max
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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby max » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:21 pm

Starsky wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:11 pm

Curvilinear foiling is what they suit. The straighter you ride, the less likely you are to enjoy them.

You've hit the nail on the head with that comment :)

If you plan to mainly ride linearly . . . there are better kites suited to that style :thumb:

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Re: one strut vs strutless

Postby Dwight » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:57 pm

max wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:15 pm

As for the Gong 9m Strutless, I have the bridle set on default middle knot and rear lines on fastest setting . . . but it still feels slow on the turn though I am still getting used to it. Turn well I think when i use some rear line tension and hard pull on the bar . . . OR . . . am i doing it wrong Dwight?
All the GONG kites I own have just average turning speed, but they have excellent direct feedback, while maintaining very soft sheeting pressure. So I love the compromise they have chosen.

The GONG strutless is high aspect compared to Cloud, so they will never match those for turning speed. But GONG relaunches easy and builds massive apparent wind speed and power.

GONG strut wave is just average for turning speed, but maintains the superior kite feel and soft sheeting feel.


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