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Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

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jeromeL
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Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby jeromeL » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:36 pm

How do you control roll exactly on hydrofoil?
So far I can control where I want to go using yaw, I can of turn my head or hip and board goes where I want when it's on water surface. Once it picks up I can still control slightly if there are weird turbulence.
But once it rolls one way whatever my muscle memory does seems to make it works and usually falls the other way of roll.

Are you supposed to stop roll by using yaw to steer board toward roll so foil gets back under you and roll levels out? A bit like on a bike, when you lean on a turn you turn further into it and wheel goes under you center of gravity and levels out?

Since I am beginner should I just bail out when it startr to roll until I can control pitch well? or should I try to recover from roll?

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:17 pm

jeromeL wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:36 pm
How do you control roll exactly on hydrofoil?
So far I can control where I want to go using yaw, I can of turn my head or hip and board goes where I want when it's on water surface. Once it picks up I can still control slightly if there are weird turbulence.
But once it rolls one way whatever my muscle memory does seems to make it works and usually falls the other way of roll.

Are you supposed to stop roll by using yaw to steer board toward roll so foil gets back under you and roll levels out? A bit like on a bike, when you lean on a turn you turn further into it and wheel goes under you center of gravity and levels out?

Since I am beginner should I just bail out when it startr to roll until I can control pitch well? or should I try to recover from roll?

You are spot on, the bike analogy is correct :thumb:

When having straps though, you can control roll "more", and correct when it is not spot on, or push (racers) in a "less natural" stance.

But basically, you control with yaw, and in time when you get better, it looks like you simply push the edge down to make a fluid carving turn - eventhough it is NOT like that, but it feels and looks like that when you get experience :naughty:

IMO.

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby BWD » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:28 am

Speed does smooth things out but you can better learn the limits of counter steer with a mountain bike on a slow tight course than a sharp foil at speed or a road bike, from my point of view...

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby lovethepirk » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:29 am

Accept my reply not as advice but more so as a complete novice still learning and what tokens I've personally found underneath a few crashes.

My first feeling controlling roll was my back foot WAS the foil...made sense to me b/c I had my back foot out of the back strap and right above the foil. If my foil tested my patience and went toeside-ish I felt my back foot doing the same so I applied back foot heel side pressure. This all happened on my 3rd sesh when I put in solid foiling tacks. Whatever roll angle my back foot was at the board/foil replicated.

My 5th sesh, I put the back foot in the back strap and hence the foil is more between my feet now so I 'think' I'm using a blend of both feet and body to adapt. I think you will go thru a few variations of what's working. And, BTW if you think roll is a problem tacking upwind....what till you do a mile downwinder :lol:

On a side note, in 7 sessions, I'm loosing some of the feels I had in my first 4 sessions and I can't really articulate even to myself what is causing what now. All I know is there is so much going on and the brain is in crazy overdrive it's like the conscious just shuts down and the whole experience is sub-conscious and that is really freaking cool. :cool2: It's like the moment you start thinking about technique, you look up and your wingtip is a foot from the water and you're like holy shit! So the brain just shuts off and says 'dude, just take it in and pick up the pieces later.' I didn't think I'd get so hooked on foiling, but I think I'm really going to enjoy this. The exploration potential and massive boosting potential is exciting. :jump:

Oh and btw I'm seeing that like Peter said on the downwind tacks my roll is much more correctable with yaw movements fyi ;)

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby alexrider » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:11 am

"Controlling roll like counter steering on bike". Absolutely. It clicked for me when I realised that.
One must remember that the lifting area of the mast is greater than the wing's, so adjusting its angle of attack (by yawing) is essential to control the roll, which by the way, is initially harder than the pitch.

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby plummet » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:35 am

Well I'm confused by all this roll/yaw talk. Just lean into it like a riding a bike. or closer still, like doing a wheelie on a bike. Lean with your body where you want to go.

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:49 pm

plummet wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:35 am
Well I'm confused by all this roll/yaw talk. Just lean into it like a riding a bike. or closer still, like doing a wheelie on a bike. Lean with your body where you want to go.
Yeah, just think about leaning over from the wings, not at the board, or you gonna jack knife. Keep your shit all lined up and balanced from wings to the top of your head.

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby jeromeL » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:06 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:49 pm
plummet wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:35 am
Well I'm confused by all this roll/yaw talk. Just lean into it like a riding a bike. or closer still, like doing a wheelie on a bike. Lean with your body where you want to go.
Yeah, just think about leaning over from the wings, not at the board, or you gonna jack knife. Keep your shit all lined up and balanced from wings to the top of your head.
Im sure after you get muscle memory it feels like you are just leaning into it but unconsciously you give a small yaw input that change equilibrium and allow you to lean into the turn, but you "feel" like you lean into it.

Funny thing a lot of people teaching to ride a moped tell you that to turn you kind of just lean one way ;)

Anyway I was just curious I guess with practice this comes together and no need to sweat the details.

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby revhed » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:15 pm

alexrider wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:11 am
"Controlling roll like counter steering on bike".
the lifting area of the mast is greater than the wing's,
I respectfully strongly disagree!
A bicycle has a gyroscopic component that a KBHF simply does not!
Therefore "counter steering" per se, has nothing to do with our flying toys!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Do you think your are getting lift from your STRUT?
I challenge you to remove your fuse and wings and see if you can take off with your STRUTS lift!
R H

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jeromeL
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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby jeromeL » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:08 pm

revhed wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:15 pm
alexrider wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:11 am
"Controlling roll like counter steering on bike".
the lifting area of the mast is greater than the wing's,
I respectfully strongly disagree!
A bicycle has a gyroscopic component that a KBHF simply does not!
Therefore "counter steering" per se, has nothing to do with our flying toys!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Do you think your are getting lift from your STRUT?
I challenge you to remove your fuse and wings and see if you can take off with your STRUTS lift!
R H
I dont understand what alexrider meant but for me it has nothing to do with gyroscoping effect, gyro effect just makes it a lot more apparent because you have to exert a lot more volontary force to break equilibrium.

I don't think that toy has much gyro effect:
IMG_3790.PNG
Foil should have more stability than the gyro on that scooter.

Even on a twintip if i want to lean harder on the board I have to aim the board slightly downwind so I can shift my center of gravity. You have to give some to get some ;)

If you look at the geometry of the foil, if you shift your center of gravity on the upwind side of board will have a reverse action of pushing the board downwind which would roll the foil the wrong way.
Now if you don't shift but apply your weight more through your heels, the foil will start to roll but your center of gravity is now on wrong side of foil. Anyway that's going to be a hard one to verify in controller manner,counter steering on bike is easier to check.
Counter steering on bike is still true at very slow speed it s just that the arc of the turn isn't very safe at such speed.


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