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Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

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abel
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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby abel » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:18 pm

revhed wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:15 pm
...
Do you think your are getting lift from your STRUT?
I challenge you to remove your fuse and wings and see if you can take off with your STRUTS lift!
R H
Once I got into an undesired crazy tilt ,such that half of the wing was outside the water, and I was still foiling at crazy speed like with a race board (@ mere 11 knots).
Based on that experience, I think that the strut (mast) does have a significant lift, provided it is tilted.
It is quite obvious that among the roll, pitch and yaw dynamics, the roll has the largest flat area perpendicular to the movement.
Given that the torque forces are applied to the mast and wing altogether, the roll move is sluggish.
Opposite to this, the pitch and yaw movements just need to overcome water "cutting" forces.
This is one of the main reasons why long lines are so helpful for starting. They enable a slow mast roll from horizontal to vertical position.

I think that any trial to make a speedy roll will end in a swipe out of the board.
So what works for me, on a close reach for example, I roll slowly by balancing my CG starboard and forward,
How much would be a matter of muscle memory trial and error learning, but at least I know what direction I have to move the CG :wink: .

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:56 am

jeromeL wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:06 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:49 pm
plummet wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:35 am
Well I'm confused by all this roll/yaw talk. Just lean into it like a riding a bike. or closer still, like doing a wheelie on a bike. Lean with your body where you want to go.
Yeah, just think about leaning over from the wings, not at the board, or you gonna jack knife. Keep your shit all lined up and balanced from wings to the top of your head.
Im sure after you get muscle memory it feels like you are just leaning into it but unconsciously you give a small yaw input that change equilibrium and allow you to lean into the turn, but you "feel" like you lean into it.

Funny thing a lot of people teaching to ride a moped tell you that to turn you kind of just lean one way ;)

Anyway I was just curious I guess with practice this comes together and no need to sweat the details.
Oh I see what you're saying. I was thinking you were just standing up and down on the board and only yawing it around, not giving it any roll. You can do a banked turn with yaw, and you can do it without. If there's any in there when I "carve" a gybe, it's no more than on a TT or directional. Looking at my line mount video, I can't see any :D

Certainly with an almost-stall gybe, I yaw upwind to get my weight on the back of the board for some height, then yaw the board back around under me with the weight inside the turn. Same as a TT. With a carving turn, I'm just moving my weight to the toe side edge and letting the wings work. Pitch is more important in the turn . . .

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby BWD » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:31 am

I remember long ago when first learning to really corner a bike hard, putting all my weight into my inside hand and outside foot and watching how far away from the turn the handlebars ended up to learn the limits of how far to push.
Wonder if there is a foiling equivalent...
but pretty much still trying to go straight most times.

In a related note I want to see the hydrofoil equivalent of knife edge flight, kind of butterslide meets aerobatics. Peter frank? Anyone?

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby abel » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:50 am

BWD wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:31 am

In a related note I want to see the hydrofoil equivalent of knife edge flight, kind of butterslide meets aerobatics. Peter frank? Anyone?
Can you elaborate what do you want to see?

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby alexrider » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:36 pm

Did I ever talk about upward lift force? The (lateral) lift on the mast is the force (or torque if you wish) that is responsible for the roll.
A fluid flowing past the surface of a body exerts a force on it. Lift is the component of this force that is perpendicular to the oncoming flow direction.
If anything, the gyroscopic effect of a bicycles wheel is to resist the "roll". I still fail to see why the analogy of counteracting move to prevent falling on one side cannot be used. Yawing the board induces lateral lift of the mast the same way turning the handlebar affects the vertical balance of the bike.
revhed wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:15 pm
alexrider wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:11 am
"Controlling roll like counter steering on bike".
the lifting area of the mast is greater than the wing's,
I respectfully strongly disagree!
A bicycle has a gyroscopic component that a KBHF simply does not!
Therefore "counter steering" per se, has nothing to do with our flying toys!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Do you think your are getting lift from your STRUT?
I challenge you to remove your fuse and wings and see if you can take off with your STRUTS lift!
R H

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby BWD » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:59 pm

phpBB [video]

With plane, lift is from prop thrust and fuselage.
With hydrofoil, strut and kite lift?

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby jeromeL » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:59 pm

BWD wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:59 pm
With plane, lift is from prop thrust and fuselage.
With hydrofoil, strut and kite lift?
Lift per se is only the combined force from the fuild going around fuselage of airplane, so you can't use prop thrust. Well to be accurate the blades on the prop of an airplane themselves have lift due to angle of attack and their elleptical shape ;)
I guess you are right the kite shape itself has lift ;)

there is lift from the wing themselves just like an airplane due to the flow of liquid being faster on top of wing vs below wing, makes an imbalance of pressure which nets a positive upward lift.

The fuselage also have an elleptical curve so it should create a bit of upward lift too.

The mast has some forward lift opposite to direction of drag.

You can also control lift direction with angle of attack of the whole foil assembly, by applying back foot pressure. doesn't exactly change angle of attack of wing itself though. I wonder if we could have a high tech system that would optimized angel of attack of wing themselves while in flight.

If you add the kite into it and line tension doesn't really change much for the foil, more speed means more lift.

I wonder how the rider weight on foil impact lift generated by foil, for example if you go same speed with kite high or low, one would have more force from rider on deck of the board?

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby BWD » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:14 pm

trying to split hairs or do you have any idea about the question?
from your post it seems you should contemplate:
Image
but my question is more practical than aero theory....

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby jeromeL » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:28 pm

BWD wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:14 pm
trying to split hairs or do you have any idea about the question?
from your post it seems you should contemplate:
Image
but my question is more practical than aero theory....
Didn't understand question, didn't have access to youtube from my PC, checked on my phone, now I understand what you meant ;)

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Re: Controlling roll like counter steering on bike?

Postby plummet » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:03 pm

For me carving a hydrofoil is similar to riding burms on a bike. Lean into the direction you want to go. I don't think about the foil or the board or the bike for that matter it just becomes an extension of me. Its just practice on leaning and in the instance of the foil weighting appropriately.

The fast you go on the foil the better for stability much like a bike.

If you put straps on your board that will help you manhandle the foil in when there is cross currents and swell. But otherwise its all about balance and leaning for me. Don't over think it. Just ride!.


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