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Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

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Pedro Marcos
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Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:13 am

Hello,

I own a Moses Fluente 2017, that comes with the 550 wing and 325 stabilizer, which is supposed to be the wave setup, i and think its near impossible to really ride with the power of the wave with this foil.

Yes the 550 wing have a big range of speed and the 325 stabilizer allows the foil to be alot agile, but there is no way you can "kill" the kite power and ride the wave just "pumping" the foil, the wing its just too fast for the wave and you will outrun it (yes you can come back using the kite but thats not the point).

I was searching for kitefoil waveriding videos and i did not find a single one where the rider is waveriding without using the power of kite, all of them are "running" the waves at full speed.

Anyone can show me a video where the rider if foiling the wave AT WAVE SPEED, without outrunning it, or using the kite to just move around changing waves?

Thanks

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Mitaka
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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Mitaka » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:23 am

I have exactly the same problem. I can play (with very little pull from the kite or with slack lines) with small waves but always I gain too much speed when on bigger or more steeper waves.

Luckily for me KETOS just released a new Wave XL front wing which is aimed to solve this problem and I am going to order it soon:

Google translation from French:
The Wave XL is the wing of the range that combines lift, maneuverability and stability. It is aimed at purists in search of real surfing sensations in the waves.
Its surface makes it possible to take off very early and stay in the air at low speed with great stability. It allows you to sail under canvas and no longer undergo the traction of your kite wing when you surf.
Slightly less fast and reactive than the wave, it will allow you a better control of your curves in the waves.
Its very good stability also makes it a wing suitable for beginners. It allows you to begin smoothly and its qualities of flight will reassure you to pass your first aerial transitions without too much speed
Beginners will use it with a stabilizer L for better stability.
Confirmed foilers will prefer a Stab S for increased maneuverability.
Finally, the experts will use it with a stab XS to exploit its reactivity to the best.

"It really sticks very well to the wave program, it is by far the best wing I have for the waves, hyper sound in the curves and in the descent of a wave, very good maneuverability, which is really important for the waves. Its lift can really reduce the size of the kite: I did my last session in 20-25 nds with 3m kite. We really find surfing sensations. We feel that it is the energy of the wave that mainly advances the foil and no longer the pull from the kite. The speed caused by the wave descents remains manageable. I did not feel the need to have a wing faster or slower. The foam passing is also softer than with the smaller wings.
In short, only positive! " Steph Goffinet


The only thing that slightly bothers me (I am 63 kg) is that that new Wave XL front wing is much too bigger compared to my current Wave wing - area 790, wingspan 575 vs area 570, wingspan 500. But may be this is the way it should be in order to be slow enough and manoeuvrable. :D

Can anybody else share his experience with the new Ketos Wave XL wing ?

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby plummet » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:31 am

I'm no expert by any means. But I recon its all about using the stupidest smallest kite you can lay your hands on and killing as much kite power as possible. I've only run my 4m a couple times but managed a few wave runs and that was brilliant for getting on the wave.

But its not a surfboard and if you want to ride like a surfer than go back to the surfboard. There is wave riding to be had on hydrofoils. But it is a different style to traditional surfing.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby coffeeking » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:47 pm

Deep water waves move fastest but are generally lowest and more like swell. Shallower water waves, ones that actually break, are slower (and slowing) by definition. I doubt any "surfable" wave moves fast enough for a foil.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Starsky » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:27 pm

Have only small wind driven wave experience on foil, but generally see it differently to surfboard riding, at least at my level. I stick to the outside where the swell are bigger and cleaner. Feels a treat as we rarely get anything that size as shorebreak and your out there on them before most others can have any fun in the eventual 2-3 footers they end up as. We have a couple other spots where the open lake sends swell into a channel that get the same sizeably steep smooth swell. At the beach, I kick out pretty much where I would be pulling in on a surfboard. It's pretty shallow where windswell finally begins to pitch. The swell are slow here so I do feel you can shut the kite off. You have to head "down the line" or your off it and out front, carving down and back up makes the most of it. Get it right and you can carry your speed up and over to pick up on the next one without needing the kite. It's Mimicking surf turns at most, but its fun. Catch them deep enough and you can cut back and go back over the same sections a few times trying to be in the right spot for their first crumbling crests. I'm sure I'm using more kite than I think, but I don't really care as its the feel of power coming from under foot that makes it fun and there is plenty of that, despite being only swell and unrideable on other boards.

It's either that or more often I'm closer to home and just tooling around in much smaller wind swell. Scouting the nice clean areas and treating them like a mogul run. Not wave riding either, and way more kite on/off in there but its carving and fun as hell compared to what the same conditions offer other boards.

Small kite, turn constantly while heading down the line, transition lots to go back over the best sections, or up over the back to get the next one in the set as it becomes the best section.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Pinklady » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:36 pm

in this video I use the "Ketos wave XL", a 3m kite and the stab XS. It's perfect for killing power when you're on the wave.



Now, I also use a 70 cm mast. It's so far the best setting I have used in waves !!!
It's not the same felling that surfing with a surfboard but it's really fun !

I'm waiting for testing the XXL ;)

PS : I'm not pinklady but Steph66
Last edited by Pinklady on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby pikovsg » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:46 pm

Wave riding, in face big wave riding is absolutely possible and is blissfully enjoyable. The key is the right strutless kite that can completely turn off when depowered. Only kite I know of like this is Boardriding Maui Cloud. Swear by these and don't know what i would do without them.

The 2017 Airush Ultra may also work. II think the old version is featured in the video link above.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby juandesooka » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:24 am

Interesting idea Pedro. For regular kite surfing, the goal of the first wave kites was to basically allow you to tow into the wave with kite power, but then turn off the power so you could surf the wave, with the kite drifting along, then re-engage the kite when you kick out. But even without a foil, it's pretty rare to see kite surfers actually drifting the kite and surfing, unless it's perfect conditions with side-off wind and long waves. Most of the wave riding in the videos is powered turns, flying the kite ahead of the nose of the board.

Seems like with a foil, it's even more rare conditions that it would work, where you could just park the kite, then surf a wave with the foil without any pull from the kite. We're really only just at the start of people attempting to foil in waves with sup or paddling ... what it'll probably take is one of those surf oriented foils, by someone who knows how to surf, and a maximum drift wave kite. (and while Cloud is certainly has its advantages, I'd think any good drifting kite can achieve this)

Something that makes this less feasible: of the surfers I know, kiting or not, very few are interested whatsoever in foiling. And for those uninterested, many see foiling as an abomination. So the talent pool to take this on this challenge is quite limited. ;-) For me, I am totally into riding swells with the foil, maybe obsessed by it, but if there's actual surfable waves I'll likely be on my surfboard.

Finally a technical note: in my limited experience, the smaller kite that is comfortable to crank upwind on the foil, is not necessarily ideal when attempting to go down the line on a swell. When underpowered, the kite won't drift and risks back stalling. The small kite crew say you have to loop it to keep it active, but to me that sounds like it would detract from the surfing experience, to have to madly look a kite while trying to ride the wave. A bigger kite that is properly powered for a surfboard, but OP for a foil, will drift nicer when going straight downwind. So, seems to me a smaller kite may not be the answer to this. Though you don't want a kite big enough to actually have any power in it while drifting the wave, just enough to fly along with you.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby bragnouff » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:10 am

Actually if you watch the videos of SUP foiling or surf foiling, you'll notice that they all outrun the wave down the line. Then they turn back again towards the peak, get a bit more juice from a slightly steeper section, then outrun it all again. Repeat. I can't really imagine how it would be any different with a kite. And I don't really see it as a problem either (unless of course you outrun your wave straight in front of it) you're still on the wave and able to feel that swell energy on the foil.
If you want to only move at the speed of the wave, or stay in the pocket, then a foil is probably not the right tool for the job.

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Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby juandesooka » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:34 am

bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:10 am
Actually if you watch the videos of SUP foiling or surf foiling, you'll notice that they all outrun the wave down the line. Then they turn back again towards the peak, get a bit more juice from a slightly steeper section, then outrun it all again. Repeat.
You've just described surfing! The point of the all the cutbacks and top turns is functional, to stay engaged with the most powerful part of the wave, then once you accelerate down the face you have to back to the pocket, do a top turn and do it again. And then the carving becomes the goal in itself. Surfing is not about moving at the speed of the wave and just standing there.

With surf kiting, the goal is to use the WAVE's power exclusively, not the kite's power. Surfing purists consider kiting to be cheating, as we are basically waterskiing beneath a big power boat in the sky. The wave kite designers are focused on minimizing or eliminating pull from the kite once on a wave.....surf it! Not unlike wake surfing now, where the tow rope is dropped once you're up and riding.

So, the OP's question: is there a way to actually surf the wave with a foil under a kite? I've also seen no video evidence of it yet. Though I am hearing of sup foilers getting insanely long rides at some point breaks (way out on the shoulder ahead of the surfer). So, as long as the kite was able to drift ... can't see why in that situation you couldn't tow in with kite, then fully depower it to ride the wall. Then at the end kick out and take advantage of that high upwind angle to get back to the top of the point quick and get another. :-)


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