Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders


User avatar
bragnouff
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 99
Local Beach: New Brighton
Gear: Alkita boards
Zeeko foil
GK Trix
Enduro9
Brand Affiliation: GK enthusiast
Location: Te Wai Pounamu
Contact:

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby bragnouff » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:38 am

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:34 am
bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:10 am
Actually if you watch the videos of SUP foiling or surf foiling, you'll notice that they all outrun the wave down the line. Then they turn back again towards the peak, get a bit more juice from a slightly steeper section, then outrun it all again. Repeat.
You've just described surfing! The point of the all the cutbacks and top turns is functional, to stay engaged with the most powerful part of the wave, then once you accelerate down the face you have to back to the pocket, do a top turn and do it again. And then the carving becomes the goal in itself. Surfing is not about moving at the speed of the wave and just standing there.
Yeah well, what I meant is that the foiling part exacerbates that, it takes you way further down the face onto a weaker shoulder, and faster at it too. I assume that's what was suggested through the mentions of outrunning the wave. Foiling a wave would probably require more cutbacks. When surfing with a kite you're not doing it that much. I think you tend instead to turn more or less tight or further in front to just catch up with the section, due to the ease of adjusting your speed. Maybe also because the wind direction doesn't help going against it! It's a bit like that in windsurf too. Or maybe it's because we're overloaded of videos of perfect down the line peelers and my perception is all skewed... Anyway, more cutbacks involved. Whether you do them on the wave or turn further in front of it is, with more or less kite action is a matter of style. That 360 upwind would be a tasty addition to a wave ride to position you back up in style.
I'm sure foiling will similarly open some new frontiers for waveriding, it won't be the same conditions required for that craft to excel, won't be the same lines carved either so might never be seen as pure.

As a side note: so far my best waveriding sessions (still fresh at it though!) on a foil have been on pretty much direct onshore winds. This seems to give the less constraints in terms of where to go on the wave, and that's where you'd also have your kite depowered the most. Kind of have to keep it flying at times and downloop here and there to keep some tension, but the turns are essentially dictated by the wave, and you get to stay on that wave for a long time. That fits the definition of waveriding in my books. That was with a DoubleAgent and with the Zeeko/Carver combo.

User avatar
Pedro Marcos
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Portugal - Algarve - Faro

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:38 pm

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:24 am
Interesting idea Pedro. For regular kite surfing, the goal of the first wave kites was to basically allow you to tow into the wave with kite power, but then turn off the power so you could surf the wave, with the kite drifting along, then re-engage the kite when you kick out. But even without a foil, it's pretty rare to see kite surfers actually drifting the kite and surfing, unless it's perfect conditions with side-off wind and long waves. Most of the wave riding in the videos is powered turns, flying the kite ahead of the nose of the board.

Seems like with a foil, it's even more rare conditions that it would work, where you could just park the kite, then surf a wave with the foil without any pull from the kite. We're really only just at the start of people attempting to foil in waves with sup or paddling ... what it'll probably take is one of those surf oriented foils, by someone who knows how to surf, and a maximum drift wave kite. (and while Cloud is certainly has its advantages, I'd think any good drifting kite can achieve this)

Something that makes this less feasible: of the surfers I know, kiting or not, very few are interested whatsoever in foiling. And for those uninterested, many see foiling as an abomination. So the talent pool to take this on this challenge is quite limited. ;-) For me, I am totally into riding swells with the foil, maybe obsessed by it, but if there's actual surfable waves I'll likely be on my surfboard.

Finally a technical note: in my limited experience, the smaller kite that is comfortable to crank upwind on the foil, is not necessarily ideal when attempting to go down the line on a swell. When underpowered, the kite won't drift and risks back stalling. The small kite crew say you have to loop it to keep it active, but to me that sounds like it would detract from the surfing experience, to have to madly look a kite while trying to ride the wave. A bigger kite that is properly powered for a surfboard, but OP for a foil, will drift nicer when going straight downwind. So, seems to me a smaller kite may not be the answer to this. Though you don't want a kite big enough to actually have any power in it while drifting the wave, just enough to fly along with you.
The point of being able to "foil surf" the waves its when you cant go out with a kite and a surfboard. Being able to get upwind so easily and start again surfing its really a "must" in light winds.

User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 4769
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: ford lake Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish north cwb burton

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby edt » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:46 pm

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:24 am
Something that makes this less feasible: of the surfers I know, kiting or not, very few are interested whatsoever in foiling. And for those uninterested, many see foiling as an abomination. So the talent pool to take this on this challenge is quite limited.

Watermen who are surfers first are not with the times. I know what you mean about surfers. They heap scorn on the SUP surfers, they think kayak surfers are an abomination. Of course they hate hydrofoil surfers. Hydrofoil surfers will come from the talent pool of the modern waterman, someone who is equally at home on a surfboard, SUP, kite, windsurfer and surfboard. You know. Like Kai Lenny. Or to go back further in time, like Laird Hamilton. As for those who are surfers who hate hydrofoils, they are just going to be content to be crowded together like seals on that same old line up, fighting for the best wave for the rest of their lives. I feel sorry for them more than anything. Hydrofoil surfers is just another thing for them to hate on. Hydrofoil surfing with a kite is going to be amazing. Can't wait until I get to that level.

juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 710
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Gear: BWS / Ocean Rodeo / Stringy Foil
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby juandesooka » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:45 pm

Edt: agreed, surfing is a strange sport, for something that is seeming so wild and free, it is actually one of the most negative sports I know of. That comes from too many people fighting over too few good quality waves. You getting more means I get less, so it becomes tribal, a pecking order of who gets what, and if you're not a part of the club, then you get little or nothing. So you get definitions of what is acceptable behaviour or not. An odd development is that the modern thruster has become so dominant as the wave riding vehicle, is that anything else isn't even considered "surfing" ... as in "all these kooks on their ancient hawaiian outriggers, paipos, alaia, that's not surfing!". Kiting has been such a refreshing change from this. As long as the kite surf break doesn't get too crowded, that is, then it's back to the same old. ;-)

Bragnouff: good on you for trying it out! sounds like you're ahead of me. If you can figure out a carving 360 on a wave, as a cutback, and can post video, you'll be an internet hero! :-) I was playing devil's advocate a bit in arguing the "purist" view of what OP meant about foil surfing. When it comes down to it, I am all about having fun, using whatever toys work best in whatever conditions you have. "If it feels good, do it", I am not judging (though I might argue that using twintip to boost in waves can't be called "surfing", haha). Personally I really enjoy foiling in wind swell trains, cruising downwind with them carving back and forth, popping back over to the next one in line. Though I am mostly following the kite, being pulled through the turns, so it's more like banked turns than it is like down-the-line surfing. But I can definitely still feel the wave power, as "dropping in" even on a 1-2ft swell brings enough acceleration to be a handful! Lots of wipeouts while figuring it out. Really it feels more like snowboarding or maybe skateboarding a quarter pipe.

As for "real" surfing with a foil, the videos of kai lenny are the closest I've seen -- where he's able to actually ride the wave face like a regular surfer, including cutbacks right into the pocket. Add a kite into that equation and it would be interesting to see what happens.

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 8127
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:47 pm

Having had some thoughts about this thread, but not time till now to comment.

I dont agree the point only is to go out when you can not go out with a waveboard, it is two different disciplines that can no be compared, eventhough most try to do so - meaning "emulate" riding on a surf/waveboard, when hydrofoiling.
THAT does not work well IMO, and is not the right approach.

You can ride waves with small kites, I have a 3.5 m2 I use when windy.
But as Bragnouff and others have said - it often works way better when it is NOT sideshore.
Maybe because you got more options, and in these conditions you DONT try to "just" emulate surfing.

The power from the waves, even the smallest ankle snappers, are extreme and can be felt and used way more than on a surfboard.
You can really notice this if you ride really underpowered and do a full carve so you got no power in the kite when coming out of the carve - but using even a one foot small windwave, can make you foil along no problem even with slack lines for quite some time :heartface:
Most of us use this often, to be able to keep foiling at this point, till we are up to speed and power from the kite again - OR just enjoy riding without kitepower for a while :D

Agree a lot with Starsky in his post above btw.

There are some interesting posts about this topic somehow ending up in the other thread about "Surfing with a Kite Hydrofoil" which was about surfing and not kite(foil)surfing.

Without outrunning the wave ?
But we SHOULD be able to do this if we want, the whole point as otherwise we can not do turns on the waveface, nor ride anything but perpendicular to the wave.
That is the same way most ride with a waveboard, eventhough I still will say you should not compared - but here we also ride faster than the waves usually, so we can do turns and ride up or downwind or DTL.


When out in waves, small or big, making foiling 360s up and around in/on the waveface is maybe THE most fun I have ever had, it does not work for me every time no, but when it does, it is like nirvana :naughty:

You can use a foil to have fun in waves, where a waveboard would be useless, and at least boring, if lower wind or flat waves or onshore etc.
You can use a foil to have fun in waves, at the same conditions where waveboards excel too, that is your choice and you can do one or the other or both.

-------------------

We were out in bigger waves not that long ago - I started out on my wavefoil with a 5 m2, it was "medium" waves this day, fully sideshore wind, but outside came some huge sets now and then - awesome to ride these, here just carving around having fun on the smaller ones first:

Image


Image

The small wave above wave is ending later on a shallow sandbank, but again, you learn how to keep foiling high (using a 100 cm mast, which I prefer) so you can transition inside the sandbank, or turn over the bank and ride out to deeper water for a "risky" jibe (meaning, where your board might end up on the water surface when you make a bad one).



Some hours later the waves build up a lot (so did the wind btw), and outside the really big sets were truly exhilarating to blast down and around on the faces:

Image


Riding at high speed in front, to ride past the section to get to the clean shoulder

Image

It was great and really exciting.
When you got tumbled around in the whitewater, it was no problem "avoiding" the foil, being an experienced (= old ha haa) waverider (and foiler) so you knew how and where to fall so to speak.

------------------


I also went out on my waveboard, having good DTL rides and fun in the steep dumpers

Image

Image

Image





Having had a great day out there with a 5 m2 on foil and an 8 on waveboard:

Image

And yes, our crabs are well sized here in Denmark c",)


Image


The title "Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding" ??? implies you are stuck on something and can not change and open up for new things.
OR, you have realized it is a new world, different indeed and should not be compared :thumb:

One thing is for sure, you can utilize the power from the waves way more on a foil than on a waveboard - but it is not relevant for the "Fun" factor.

As said before, hydrofoiling in waves are SOOO different than on a waveboard (luckily) and we have the chance to find new ways of riding and having fun, and can enjoy both foilboards and waveboards.

Whether you prefer a short or a long mast, a small or a big wing - is fully individual and for some depending on conditions on a given day - the point is, it is GREAT FUN :rollgrin:

8) PF

PullStrings
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm
Gear: what works for the day

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby PullStrings » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:14 pm

It looks so much better on the waveboard...all that spray coming off the board in the turns...that's what the feeling is all about...pushing the water with the board..tearing it up
Yes foilboard you'll catch/feel the wave energy down below and that's cool

slowboat
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Gear: BRM, Shinn, North, Ocean Rodeo
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby slowboat » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:44 am

Peter, very informative explanations with images. Inspirational for a new foiler.

User avatar
Starsky
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 4374
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:12 pm
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Ontario

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby Starsky » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:10 am

Find it way easier getting into the right spots foiling than on a surfboard. The surf able area is so much bigger, your ripping around way faster at crazy angles with an elevated point of view. Where I'm always searching for good waves on a surfboard, Im generally finding them while foiling. better work/reward ratio in most conditions.

ciscokitesurfer
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:40 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: altona
Favorite Beaches: pacasmayo
Style: wave, cruise
Gear: NRG 2014, Ride , REO,
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby ciscokitesurfer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:55 pm

HI

Peter Frank's photos are very good. It is all about the verb "Fun" , well done. I am not HF yet but is on wish list of toys. cheers.

juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 710
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Gear: BWS / Ocean Rodeo / Stringy Foil
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Wave Riding Foils, not really waveriding

Postby juandesooka » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:30 pm

A new video posted of foiling in the waves in Baja. http://www.iksurfmag.com/kitesurfing-ne ... -a-breeze/

Wind is side off, less than 10mph they report, so assume it is 5-6kt. Looks like fun, playing in the waves. Though the surfer purists may well question if it is "surfing" or just kiting in and around waves.

In that light wind, I suspect a regular surfboard with kite wouldn't work. Hate to say it, but the windsurfer seems to have the best waveriding tool for that situation, as they are able to stay in the pocket and ride the wave down the line. Not being a hater, just an observation.

But also a general observation ... how much FUN does that set up look?!?! Mmmm



PS thanks Ronnie for video embedding tip. I new about removing s from https. But the problem here was you need the www. in front of vimeo.com too
Last edited by juandesooka on Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: diogovilla, jaros and 2 guests

cron