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7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

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plummet
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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby plummet » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:03 pm

Another thought to stack the advantage towards the kiter would be the size of the course. The AC45 will have superior top speed and maybe pointing angle. The kiter will have superior acceleration out of a mark and be able to turn tighter around a mark. So a short course in high winds my very well equal the standings.

On a side note isn't the America's cup racing fricken astounding? Its the most exciting yacht racing I have ever seen. Usually its batshit boring.

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby gbrungra » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:56 am

Certainly if the course is a bunch of slalom buoys twenty feet apart the kite wins.

I guess I hadn't seen video of the AC boats in swell. Not sure who would have a tougher time with it.

A foil kite has a lot of the same advantages as the AC wing sail. A traditional sailboat mainsail is actually very equivalent to an LEI kite, when you compare cross sections.

Who points higher? Does anyone have any polars to compare?

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby gbrungra » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:10 am

Found a polar for the 2013 America's Cup:
Image

From: http://www.cupinfo.com/cupstats/index-a ... ots-02.php

I'm sure the AC boats have gotten faster with four years of development, but VMGs of 20kts upwind and 37kts downwind (absolute best case, rounding up, from the charts) aren't significantly better than current kitefoilers.

Maybe today's kitefoilers could beat the 2013 AC boats, but the 2017 AC boats have surpassed kitefoilers?

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby tegirinenashi » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:13 am

plummet wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:03 pm
...On a side note isn't the America's cup racing fricken astounding? Its the most exciting yacht racing I have ever seen. Usually its batshit boring.
In 2013 I can't suppress a feeling that it was staged. Boat hydro/aerodynamics is well defined, so they (Oracle) knew in advance how much handicap they can give away. When megabucks are involved they had to make it entertaining.

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby Lokihel » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:04 am



That was a while back, and I know it is NOT a hydrofoil and it is NOT a world champion in hydrofoiling. And to top it all it is NOT an AC50. (I am starting to wonder if it is even a relevant video?)

However, it does give a benchmark:
The kite has an edge at the very beginning because of acceleration, but once the catamaran get going there's nothing he can do
Last edited by Lokihel on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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f2020
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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby f2020 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:28 am

On the cost per knot ratio the AC45s failed big against the kitefoilers.

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby Lokihel » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:11 am

f2020 wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:28 am
On the cost per knot ratio the AC45s failed big against the kitefoilers.
On the cost per knot ratio the kitefoilers failed big against the swimmers. :lol:

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby FrederikS » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:55 am

Tone wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:21 pm
FrederikS wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:56 pm
On an upwind downwind course they would probably be equally fast. The VMG up and downwind look very similar to what the top HF racers are doing if you look at the VMG in the races with sub 10 knots wind. Even with the reach start and finish I think the top racers will be fine, the AC50s peak at around 40 knots on a reach in light winds.
You're wrong.
Look at the polars posted by top racers and compare their VMG with the AC50s. Assuming the overlay is correct on the broadcast the AC50s rarely exceed 20 knots VMG upwind and downwind in 6-7 knots wind. They are faster on a reach but there is not much between them elsewhere. In light winds AC50s spend a lot of time in sub 10 knots VMG when tacking where I suspect Nico or similar fast rider will be faster up to speed after tacking.

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby longwhitecloud » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:11 am

an aussie skippering the kiwiboat, kiwis in team oracle.. i... but to top it off - the dude that wrote the software update that let oracle smoke team nz last time was a kiwi! :-0 grant dalton recently had kite lessons with my mate - he is an absolute unit for his age.. well even without his age he is a unit. 59 and built like a truck.

A lot more interesting this $wankf3st this time round. Hopefully is heads back to NZ and kite sessions are on - a fave pastime of many involved last time... sick sessions

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Re: 7 kn of wind, who will win AC45F (America's cup boat) or kite foil?

Postby happywizz » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:45 am

gbrungra wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:10 am
Found a polar for the 2013 America's Cup:
Image

From: http://www.cupinfo.com/cupstats/index-a ... ots-02.php

I'm sure the AC boats have gotten faster with four years of development, but VMGs of 20kts upwind and 37kts downwind (absolute best case, rounding up, from the charts) aren't significantly better than current kitefoilers.

Maybe today's kitefoilers could beat the 2013 AC boats, but the 2017 AC boats have surpassed kitefoilers?
I think the key in answering my questions is this comment from gbrungra, thanks gbrungra! I didnt know that they have published these statistics.
Would be nice if we could have them from our top kitefoil races.

Although I am certainly not an expert of this matter but based on the comments important seems to be:

1. Velocity Made Good (VMG) at True-Wind-Angle (TWA) with a given wind speed
2. Type of race course.
3. Wind speed limit's for the craft

Ad. 1
If I examine the america's polar I'm quite surprised that it doesn't look as impressive as I thought it would, compared to ones I have seen from the kitefoilers. Or I'm wrong?

Ad. 2
What kind of race course? As I don't think matchracing is a good comparison for two different sailing crafts I will choose the Olympic triangle course. So no reaching at the begin and end (which is in favor of the AC45)

Ad. 3
As I stated in my first post, I said 7 knots of wind on a race course.
7 knots because both crafts should be ok to foil, with some margin.
Probably has a kiter a lower wind limit then the AC45, but at 7 knots both should be ok.

In conclusion I would say that on an Olympic race course with 7 knots of wind the AC45 probably would win (if they are not the French team, they don't have kiwi's on board do they?). But not with that big margin sailors would hope for.

Otherwise matchracing or speed course, big win for the AC45's

Solely on money invested a big win for the swimmers, whatever the type of course or wind speed.


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