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Kite for 6-10 knots

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Mossy 757
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:27 pm

abel wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:29 pm
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:41 pm
As a beginner you would easily become overpowered with the 15m as soon as you start foiling and building apparent wind.
At under 10 knots??
I can ride comfortably on my ElfJoker7 15m and Delta hydrofoil up to about 17 knots on 17m lines, beyond that I get too overpowered to hold it down and get dragged downwind where I can't edge upwind. It really shines in the 12-15 knot range.

I think anyone who says they're overpowered on a 15m in 10 knots doesn't know what 10 knots of wind is...

Kitemanmuc
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Kitemanmuc » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:35 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:27 pm
abel wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:29 pm
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:41 pm
As a beginner you would easily become overpowered with the 15m as soon as you start foiling and building apparent wind.
At under 10 knots??
I can ride comfortably on my ElfJoker7 15m and Delta hydrofoil up to about 17 knots on 17m lines, beyond that I get too overpowered to hold it down and get dragged downwind where I can't edge upwind. It really shines in the 12-15 knot range.

I think anyone who says they're overpowered on a 15m in 10 knots doesn't know what 10 knots of wind is...
Yeah but you are also not a beginner, are on 17m lines and probably have a race depower line on a high AR Elf. Big difference between that at being a beginner on 23m lines, regular depower and a med AR kite.

Mossy 757
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:59 pm

Litsupplyco wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:35 pm
Yeah but you are also not a beginner, are on 17m lines and probably have a race depower line on a high AR Elf. Big difference between that at being a beginner on 23m lines, regular depower and a med AR kite.
The short lines and depower system definitely help, I would never recommend a foil kite to someone without a race depower trimmer, no idea why they even make foil kite bars with the tube kite style depower systems. There are a couple of kits you can buy to convert a standard single line flag out low Y bar setup to a race style trim, highly recommended if one is thinking about a foil kite.

That being said, I have a little over 2 full seasons of experience on hydrofoils and foil kites and a total of about 3.5 years kiting. I don't think my recommendation is outside the realm of possible for a beginner in good shape who wants to learn and isn't afraid of jumping in with both feet. The reason I always play the "get a big kite" game on here is that the small kites offer such a narrow margin of error below 10 knots of breeze that I think it makes for a poor recommendation for someone learning because they'll almost certainly try to take it out in the marginal low end instead of the high end of the wind range where they should be learning. That's what this thread is all about, super marginal kiting. Yeah, initially the OP might get overpowered in 13 knots, but eventually people learn and get comfortable. I remember the first time I was truly overpowered on a 15m foil kite where I felt like it was an emergency to get back to the beach and land. It was a pretty scary experience but I followed safe landing procedures, everything went fine, and now in hindsight I could probably have finished my session on that kite given where I feel I've progressed since then.

At this point in the development of foil kites, I think they're good enough that you can buy them expecting to keep them for a while, so if someone can afford a big kite for 6-10 knots, I think it makes sense to go as big as practicable. If this was the "what's the best kite for 9-15 knots?" I'd be more apt to recommend something in the 13-10 sqm range.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:11 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:27 pm
I think anyone who says they're overpowered on a 15m in 10 knots doesn't know what 10 knots of wind is...
I am with you on your previous comparision of 12m vs 15m feeling, but not at all on above "assumption"
Here is a video of "Mr Anyone" ;
phpBB [video]

Wind was 4-10 knots ; we can guess this range from the water surface on-shore wind, but confirmed by the winds-up record located at 10m height (very close to the flag on the video); in gusts it was a bit too powerfull for me.
So do not conclude (and judge) too rapidly my dear before as a minimum taking the weight of rider into account (what is yours?) , and the fact that a medium AR kite has a lower high end due to worse traction angle (but "better" low end planning IMO)

Mossy 757
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:55 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:11 pm
Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:27 pm
I think anyone who says they're overpowered on a 15m in 10 knots doesn't know what 10 knots of wind is...
I am with you on your previous comparision of 12m vs 15m feeling, but not at all on above "assumption"
Here is a video of "Mr Anyone" ;
phpBB [video]

Wind was 4-10 knots ; we can guess this range from the water surface on-shore wind, but confirmed by the winds-up record located at 10m height (very close to the flag on the video); in gusts it was a bit too powerfull for me.
So do not conclude (and judge) too rapidly my dear before as a minimum taking the weight of rider into account (what is yours?) , and the fact that a medium AR kite has a lower high end due to worse traction angle (but "better" low end planning IMO)
You misunderstand me, I would agree wholeheartedly that the wind in the video is not above 10 knots. You're also 20kg less than me from what I've read, so that might account for the difference, but a 15m is never the wrong choice for 10 knots on most of the production foils available today with most of the production kites available today. Again, the thread is 6-10 knots, not 8-12 knots and certainly not 10-15 knots...this is about going riding powered up when the wind is in single digits. Recommending a kite smaller than 15m to a beginner is going to result in either abject frustration or the person will need to figure out how to double loop/backstall to water start within their first few sessions, and that's not a technique I'd want to rely upon under 10 knots with a 12m.

As far as your point about AR, I've never seen anyone with the math or aero eng. chops to really make that argument in a scientific way, I think it's 99.9% feel and intuition. The fact of the matter is that any sufficiently motivated kiter will get good on whatever gear they buy and then believe that it means they bought good gear. The point of these threads is to try to prevent as much wasted time and money on equipment that won't get you where you want to go, and a 12m is just not a good recommendation for your average hydrofoiler asking how to ride around in 6 knots. If you disagree, then cheers for your exceptional kite skills and adept board handling that has given you this light wind advantage!

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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Johhnn » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:19 pm

Mossy, it's just not the case: "...a 15 m is never the wrong choice for 10 knots on most of the production foils available today..." For the past 3 years until this spring I had been riding the AlpineFoil XLP wing, a beginner/intermediate setup. I rarely used my 12 meter foil kite and only on the lightest days. As soon as there were whitecaps I'd be on my 10 m or 8 m foil kite. I didn't even own a 15 m. I upgraded to the newer "Sport" wing at the beginning of this year and immediately needed a 15 m. I weigh about 170 lbs. At 10 knots on my XLP setup I would have been on my 8 m or maybe the 10 m.

Mossy 757
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:29 pm

Johhnn wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:19 pm
Mossy, it's just not the case: "...a 15 m is never the wrong choice for 10 knots on most of the production foils available today..." For the past 3 years until this spring I had been riding the AlpineFoil XLP wing, a beginner/intermediate setup. I rarely used my 12 meter foil kite and only on the lightest days. As soon as there were whitecaps I'd be on my 10 m or 8 m foil kite. I didn't even own a 15 m. I upgraded to the newer "Sport" wing at the beginning of this year and immediately needed a 15 m. I weigh about 170 lbs. At 10 knots on my XLP setup I would have been on my 8 m or maybe the 10 m.
I understand what you're saying, and it's clear from this thread that there's disagreement on the wind range of kites. We will continue to disagree on this point until you provide evidence of you riding in 6-10 knots with an 8m kite. Until then, my recommendation (one of many from lots of experienced people!) remains unchanged.

@Abel, you're throwing your money away if you get anything less than a 15m, in fact, get an 18m!

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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby sedluk » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:53 pm

I found that it was a lot easier for me to learn to hydrofoil with a large kite in light winds. 6 knots might be a little tough for a beginner but I found that 8-9 knots and a big 21m Speed 5 was my sweet spot. If the wind picked up, I would switch to a 15m when 9-10 knots.

I spent most of the time with the foil in the water getting the hang of water starts and balancing. I could go out for a hour or two and have a nice session with the foil in the water. When I would get up to speed, I would lift up on the foil for short, very fun runs.

Yes, you can get over powered easily when up on the foil. Once you get the water start down and get up quickly on the foil, then you do not want a big kite. Very few people will get there in a handful of sessions.

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:50 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:27 pm
abel wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:29 pm
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:41 pm
As a beginner you would easily become overpowered with the 15m as soon as you start foiling and building apparent wind.
At under 10 knots??
I can ride comfortably on my ElfJoker7 15m and Delta hydrofoil up to about 17 knots on 17m lines, beyond that I get too overpowered to hold it down and get dragged downwind where I can't edge upwind. It really shines in the 12-15 knot range.

I think anyone who says they're overpowered on a 15m in 10 knots doesn't know what 10 knots of wind is...
You are not a beginner , 17m it's not normal kite length lines and the delta foil has a small front wing .

Put a beginner on 25m lines and 15m foil kite , with a big foil wing and he will immediately overpowered in 10 knots or maybe less .

I've been there !

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abel
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Re: Kite for 6-10 knots

Postby abel » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:34 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:29 pm
Johhnn wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:19 pm
Mossy, it's just not the case: "...a 15 m is never the wrong choice for 10 knots on most of the production foils available today..." For the past 3 years until this spring I had been riding the AlpineFoil XLP wing, a beginner/intermediate setup. I rarely used my 12 meter foil kite and only on the lightest days. As soon as there were whitecaps I'd be on my 10 m or 8 m foil kite. I didn't even own a 15 m. I upgraded to the newer "Sport" wing at the beginning of this year and immediately needed a 15 m. I weigh about 170 lbs. At 10 knots on my XLP setup I would have been on my 8 m or maybe the 10 m.
I understand what you're saying, and it's clear from this thread that there's disagreement on the wind range of kites. We will continue to disagree on this point until you provide evidence of you riding in 6-10 knots with an 8m kite. Until then, my recommendation (one of many from lots of experienced people!) remains unchanged.

@Abel, you're throwing your money away if you get anything less than a 15m, in fact, get an 18m!
Right! There is a relation between the skill, the refinement of the equipment and the kite size.
Kite size drops when higher the skills and more effective hydrodynamics.

I'll take Mossy's advice based on my own experience when started kiting during the early modern kite ages :wink: :
The dealer sold me a 12m 2-4 lines convertible Wipika, which caused me a lot of frustration (trying to ride in 11-13 knots).
Then I leaped into a North Rhino 16 and suddenly felt like an expert.
And yes, talking about overpowered, once I got caught with the Rhino in 20-22 knots and by the "no options" law I had to deal with it :shake:

I'll opt for a 15 foil and have handy my current 12 and 10 inflatos, should the wind be >10 knots (I also bought a 6.5 for the lucky case of 14-18 knots :) )
Thank you all guys for this educating thread. :cheers:

Now that I narrowed the decision to a 15 foil, will have to make a "tougher" decision about the type.
Tougher because no possibility to test, as the few foils around are race type or Flysurfer giants (19 and bigger)
So what I'll be looking for is:
1- No high aspect race type
2- mid aspect "less tip collapsing" foils having light weight
3- enhanced relaunch capabilities.


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