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Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders


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liv2surf
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Local Beach: Waddell Creek, Scott Creek, Miramar-Half Moon Bay, Coyote Point, Pillar Point Harbor-HMB
Style: waves & foil
Gear: Cabrinha Drifters 7, 9, 11. Firewire Dominator surfboard (quad), no straps. SS SpacePickle adapted to foil (LF Foilfish foil), two foot hooks, front and back.
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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby liv2surf » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:58 am

gmb13 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:16 pm
liv2surf wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:12 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 am
I understand Gunnar, that a really lifting, slower speed (still okay turning) wing will "hang" onto the wave much better, though feel more like a surfboard where you can feel the wave lift you, and don't outrun the wave, cool. .......
......

8) PF

The above excerpted statement is very important in my mind. For the moment, that seems to be the best answer to my problem with the practice and concept of foiling in waves (even with my LF Foil Fish) .... my current foil does not grab the wave, we outrun the wave, it does not feel anything like a surfboard, but most importantly, I can not feel the wave - there is no feedback from the wave that you usually have on a surfboard.

As a lifelong surfer (albeit almost former surfer), the above "answer", or those performance characteristics Peter and Gunnar articulated, sounds like the holy grail for what we need for wavekitefoiling.

I am seriously tempted to specialize as Peter referred to it. I would definitely do this if I had more overall kite session, more time (but that is my personal problem). I think it may be necessary to take the risk to specialize with a wave foil to really move the wavekitefoil performance where it needs to be (and this is what Gunnar seems to be saying). I think current foils are missing the mark (for me) in the waves. Let's see if I take my own challenge. Really interesting discussion.

Thanks :thumb:
That is exactly what I am trying to say. The Surf Foils let you feel the wave, just like a surfboard does. The big Kitefoil (LF, Cruizer, Ketos) wings with thin profiles just don't give you that feedback and prevent you from surfing the wave and you always feel the need for the kite to pull. The Surf Foils pretty much make the kite useless when you are on the wave, and I am always tempted to just release it. In Down the Line conditions and with a well drifting kite the feeling you get is just amazing.

--
Gunnar
I heard and understood you, and appreciate your additional comments above. Thanks for trying so many styles and so many different pieces of equipment. Your insight from this is very valuable to us trying to find our way (and in my case with less water-time than I would like). Also many of us, myself included most obviously, are limited sometimes to our imagination and pondering because we don't have as many actual data points from trying different equipment in a particular situation such as wavekitefoiling. So, you input is invaluable. Thank you so much.

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liv2surf
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Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:50 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Local Beach: Waddell Creek, Scott Creek, Miramar-Half Moon Bay, Coyote Point, Pillar Point Harbor-HMB
Style: waves & foil
Gear: Cabrinha Drifters 7, 9, 11. Firewire Dominator surfboard (quad), no straps. SS SpacePickle adapted to foil (LF Foilfish foil), two foot hooks, front and back.
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Central Coast, CA
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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby liv2surf » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:41 am

juandesooka wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:13 pm
This thread has taken an interesting turn. Like liv2surf, I am a surfer who came to kiting second. So my ultimate goal in kiting has been to re-create the surfing feel, but with the benefits a kite brings. To me, this means using the kite to get in the right place at the right time, then riding the wave’s energy with as little kite power as possible.

Seems to me this is what Gunnar’s aiming for. Prior to this, after his spitfire review, I carved some canard imitations, sized up to try and extend the stall speed. But even with the extra size, they ride really fast. Faster than waves break. You can ride in and amongst waves, but can’t really surf them. As liv2surf suggests, the line may be if you get no feedback from the wave, can’t feel its energy, then it’s not surfing. [and I know the non-surfing folks bristle at this surfing arrogance, “only a surfer knows the feeling”, etc., but it is hard to understand until you do it]

Now, all that being said … there’s nothing wrong with going mach 5 and zipping around in the waves, doing high speed carves on what are effectively moving quarter pipes. That’s a different kind of riding and super radical! To be honest, as a surfer first, I may lean towards this personally. Because if the waves are good enough to be surfable, then I’ll either paddle surf them or kite with my surfboard. I am not yet convinced from the videos about kite-surfing with a foil….but we’ll see. The progression is progressing.

But for now, my experimenting is to try and set up a SUP foil! That looks very functional … a way to ride marginal waves and wave sections that are otherwise unrideable.
:thumb: :thumb: I was glad to hear you liked the discussion and that we share the same goal with Gunnar a perhaps a few others here. I'll pay attention to your progress in wavekitefoiling.

I have been kiting in the surf (strapless surfboard) since 2004 and paddle surfing waves since that late 1970's, and yet I LOVE kitefoil! I am stoked and have a blast every time I kitefoil in the ocean (with waves) or in flat water, with or without wavelets, but for me foiling in waves has not lived up to the Kai Lenny/Laird Hamilton/Jeff Clark/Gunnar Biniasch stoke and hype (but I wish it would). So, I am really interested to pursue this subject virtually and literally.

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liv2surf
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Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:50 pm
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Local Beach: Waddell Creek, Scott Creek, Miramar-Half Moon Bay, Coyote Point, Pillar Point Harbor-HMB
Style: waves & foil
Gear: Cabrinha Drifters 7, 9, 11. Firewire Dominator surfboard (quad), no straps. SS SpacePickle adapted to foil (LF Foilfish foil), two foot hooks, front and back.
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Central Coast, CA
Contact:

Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby liv2surf » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:59 am

gmb13 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:43 pm
TomW wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:38 pm
Gunnar, what mast length and board are you using for these slow speed wings?
The Board is pretty much up to you. I use anything from my EXO to the 5'4" Takuma teaching Boards.

In clean conditions the 60cm mast is fine. The 70cm is probably the best one for fast turns. 90cm is a bit slow to turn, but easier for people who are used to this standard length.

--
Gunnar
:thumb: Really interesting to learn how different mast lengths can be used for different applications.

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gmb13
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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby gmb13 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:58 am

liv2surf wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:41 am
juandesooka wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:13 pm
This thread has taken an interesting turn. Like liv2surf, I am a surfer who came to kiting second. So my ultimate goal in kiting has been to re-create the surfing feel, but with the benefits a kite brings. To me, this means using the kite to get in the right place at the right time, then riding the wave’s energy with as little kite power as possible.

Seems to me this is what Gunnar’s aiming for. Prior to this, after his spitfire review, I carved some canard imitations, sized up to try and extend the stall speed. But even with the extra size, they ride really fast. Faster than waves break. You can ride in and amongst waves, but can’t really surf them. As liv2surf suggests, the line may be if you get no feedback from the wave, can’t feel its energy, then it’s not surfing. [and I know the non-surfing folks bristle at this surfing arrogance, “only a surfer knows the feeling”, etc., but it is hard to understand until you do it]

Now, all that being said … there’s nothing wrong with going mach 5 and zipping around in the waves, doing high speed carves on what are effectively moving quarter pipes. That’s a different kind of riding and super radical! To be honest, as a surfer first, I may lean towards this personally. Because if the waves are good enough to be surfable, then I’ll either paddle surf them or kite with my surfboard. I am not yet convinced from the videos about kite-surfing with a foil….but we’ll see. The progression is progressing.

But for now, my experimenting is to try and set up a SUP foil! That looks very functional … a way to ride marginal waves and wave sections that are otherwise unrideable.
:thumb: :thumb: I was glad to hear you liked the discussion and that we share the same goal with Gunnar a perhaps a few others here. I'll pay attention to your progress in wavekitefoiling.

I have been kiting in the surf (strapless surfboard) since 2004 and paddle surfing waves since that late 1970's, and yet I LOVE kitefoil! I am stoked and have a blast every time I kitefoil in the ocean (with waves) or in flat water, with or without wavelets, but for me foiling in waves has not lived up to the Kai Lenny/Laird Hamilton/Jeff Clark/Gunnar Biniasch stoke and hype (but I wish it would). So, I am really interested to pursue this subject virtually and literally.
If you love surfing, you have to get a Surf Foil and mount it on your Surfboard. Kitingfoiling is just one as aspect of it. I actually prefer to be on my SUP board nowadays, and I have to admit, that SUPfoiling has replaced kiting as my main addiction as it has given me totally new connection to waves.

--
Gunnar

Jzh_perth
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Re: Do I already have the best wave foil?

Postby Jzh_perth » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:09 pm

liv2surf wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:45 pm
I have been foiling for a while on an entry level foil in ocean out back behind waves and in flat water with some non-breaking swell. I am in the market for a wave foil. Everyone seems to be saying slow foil for waves. I had been thinking about the 2017 Moses Fluente but seems too fast. That Takuma foil looks nice. But this brings me full circle thinking that maybe my current setup is ideal for waves.

Curious what people think about the performance of my current setup for RIDING WAVES (original Liquid Force Foil fish).... or if and how people think a Mose Fluente, Takuma v100 or a Gofoil would be better (and if so how?).
Hi Liv2Surf,

I too have come a full circle after my original LF. I learnt in that same foil and are now buying a Takuma having been thru race foils (Levitaz and KFA) and Freeride (Magma Barracuda, Zeeko Spitfire and Green and white) and the more experienced I get, the slower I want to go in order to properly ride waves and not outrun them.

I will always keep a regular foil (Green and White) for all round foiling, but I'm 100% keen on something low and slow for waves and teaching students. If you can onsell your LF to another learner you could upgrade yourself, or if money is tight just make do and work on the surf foil basics - foiling gybes to and from toeside, upwind 180, and rodeo of course:) I'm. It 1""% confident a Takuma would make a great "only" foil, if that makes sense.

My main hesitation with Takuma ( and I don't own it yet) is that it might be too specialised as an only foil. I'm guessing it makes a great second foil for particular conditions, but won't be a 1 size fits all. I'm finding my regular zeeko brilliant as an all rounder. We often make long up and downwinders on the foil and I think the sup/surf foil will be too slow to keep up.


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