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Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders


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gmb13
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Re: Do I already have the best wave foil?

Postby gmb13 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:37 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:29 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:07 am
You need to try a Takuma or GOFoil Peter. The LF cannot compare to either. It has about half the surface area, is less stable and and a way higher turning circle and take off speed.

--
Gunnar

You are right, I can not say anything about the Takuma, not having tried it.
So maybe this extremely big and slow wing gives a different new sensation it is not possible to foresee, before having tried it - correct.

But I can say, that the LF can ride really really slow, eventhough it does not turn as fast as our wave wings.

And when riding slow, you can turn faster too - so somehow it works fine with the LF wing in waves IMO (friend using it strapless).

Having both small and big wavewings now (lower aspect both, that turns on a dime), I can say that I love riding with my big wavewing as it can go slow and it is great in smaller waves/less wind.

But it lacks the speed a smaller faster wing got - so I prefer to use a smaller wing when more wind/waves - it simply feels better to have this free glide where you can not feel any drag and you dont need kitepower to accelerate, the lower drag wings do it themeselves when carving - feels awesome :thumb:

As ulx says, it is probably simply personal preference yes, but I have found that bigger wings are "boring" quite rapidly, eventhough perfect in some conditions and the best.

8) PF
Sure the LF can ride really slow, but not as slow as a Surf Foil. Also it does not pick up the wave like a Surf foil does. It also does not handle the acceleration steeper waves give you and gets extremely pitchy.

However I do accept that with almost everything, you will need to find it our by yourselves someday, then you will understand. I am used to the rest of the kite community needed a few years to catch up what I am trying to do.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 am

I understand Gunnar, that a really lifting slower (speed still okay turning) wing will "hang" onto the wave much better, though feel more like a surfboard where you can feel the wave lift you, and dont outrun the wave, cool.

Maybe it is just that some of us are not ready to go so specialized, for two reasons.

We dont have these swell sessions regularly but maybe often also short chop waves instead.
And maybe even when good swell (it does not have to be clean though, that is awesome), we like to be able to ride and do the things we also like to do, like higher speed carving and similar with more allround wings and longer masts.

Meaning not ready to specialize that much, but use something that we know inside out and where we can do it all to some extent, eventhough not as good, but will work okay WHEN we get these swells.

Might also be very location specific, besides personal preference - but I see what you are getting at, and great you explore a new way of riding waves :thumb:

Interesting to see how it evolves :D

8) PF

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gmb13
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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby gmb13 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:46 am

That is what people said when we started using Surfboards instead of twin tips in waves.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby ronnie » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:22 am

gmb13 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:46 am
That is what people said when we started using Surfboards instead of twin tips in waves.

--
Gunnar
Bernd - on the monofoiling thread, is thinking about how the monofoil might work in waves.
It seems (from Bernd's reports), to have a more limited windrange, but be very efficient and manouverable.

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Re: Do I already have the best wave foil?

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:48 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:37 pm

Sure the LF can ride really slow, but not as slow as a Surf Foil. Also it does not pick up the wave like a Surf foil does. It also does not handle the acceleration steeper waves give you and gets extremely pitchy.

However I do accept that with almost everything, you will need to find it our by yourselves someday, then you will understand. I am used to the rest of the kite community needed a few years to catch up what I am trying to do.

--
Gunnar
:thumb:

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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby liv2surf » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:12 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 am
I understand Gunnar, that a really lifting, slower speed (still okay turning) wing will "hang" onto the wave much better, though feel more like a surfboard where you can feel the wave lift you, and don't outrun the wave, cool. .......
......

8) PF
I have had trouble getting my head around or feeling the point of foiling in the waves. This is after foiling in waves quite a number of times 2 blocks from my house in California (in the shadow of big wave spot Mavericks - we have waves) and at other waves spots (though I have yet to really gotten proficient foiling in waves for a number of reasons, including still learning foiling and fear of injury).

The above excerpted statement is very important in my mind. For the moment, that seems to be the best answer to my problem with the practice and concept of foiling in waves (even with my LF Foil Fish) .... my current foil does not grab the wave, we outrun the wave, it does not feel anything like a surfboard, but most importantly, I can not feel the wave - there is no feedback from the wave that you usually have on a surfboard.

As a lifelong surfer (albeit almost former surfer), the above "answer", or those performance characteristics Peter and Gunnar articulated, sounds like the holy grail for what we need for wavekitefoiling.

I am seriously tempted to specialize as Peter referred to it. I would definitely do this if I had more overall kite session, more time (but that is my personal problem). I think it may be necessary to take the risk to specialize with a wave foil to really move the wavekitefoil performance where it needs to be (and this is what Gunnar seems to be saying). I think current foils are missing the mark (for me) in the waves. Let's see if I take my own challenge. Really interesting discussion.

Thanks :thumb:

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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby juandesooka » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:13 pm

This thread has taken an interesting turn. Like liv2surf, I am a surfer who came to kiting second. So my ultimate goal in kiting has been to re-create the surfing feel, but with the benefits a kite brings. To me, this means using the kite to get in the right place at the right time, then riding the wave’s energy with as little kite power as possible.

Seems to me this is what Gunnar’s aiming for. Prior to this, after his spitfire review, I carved some canard imitations, sized up to try and extend the stall speed. But even with the extra size, they ride really fast. Faster than waves break. You can ride in and amongst waves, but can’t really surf them. As liv2surf suggests, the line may be if you get no feedback from the wave, can’t feel its energy, then it’s not surfing. [and I know the non-surfing folks bristle at this surfing arrogance, “only a surfer knows the feeling”, etc., but it is hard to understand until you do it]

Now, all that being said … there’s nothing wrong with going mach 5 and zipping around in the waves, doing high speed carves on what are effectively moving quarter pipes. That’s a different kind of riding and super radical! To be honest, as a surfer first, I may lean towards this personally. Because if the waves are good enough to be surfable, then I’ll either paddle surf them or kite with my surfboard. I am not yet convinced from the videos about kite-surfing with a foil….but we’ll see. The progression is progressing.

But for now, my experimenting is to try and set up a SUP foil! That looks very functional … a way to ride marginal waves and wave sections that are otherwise unrideable.

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gmb13
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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby gmb13 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:16 pm

liv2surf wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:12 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 am
I understand Gunnar, that a really lifting, slower speed (still okay turning) wing will "hang" onto the wave much better, though feel more like a surfboard where you can feel the wave lift you, and don't outrun the wave, cool. .......
......

8) PF

The above excerpted statement is very important in my mind. For the moment, that seems to be the best answer to my problem with the practice and concept of foiling in waves (even with my LF Foil Fish) .... my current foil does not grab the wave, we outrun the wave, it does not feel anything like a surfboard, but most importantly, I can not feel the wave - there is no feedback from the wave that you usually have on a surfboard.

As a lifelong surfer (albeit almost former surfer), the above "answer", or those performance characteristics Peter and Gunnar articulated, sounds like the holy grail for what we need for wavekitefoiling.

I am seriously tempted to specialize as Peter referred to it. I would definitely do this if I had more overall kite session, more time (but that is my personal problem). I think it may be necessary to take the risk to specialize with a wave foil to really move the wavekitefoil performance where it needs to be (and this is what Gunnar seems to be saying). I think current foils are missing the mark (for me) in the waves. Let's see if I take my own challenge. Really interesting discussion.

Thanks :thumb:
That is exactly what I am trying to say. The Surf Foils let you feel the wave, just like a surfboard does. The big Kitefoil (LF, Cruizer, Ketos) wings with thin profiles just don't give you that feedback and prevent you from surfing the wave and you always feel the need for the kite to pull. The Surf Foils pretty much make the kite useless when you are on the wave, and I am always tempted to just release it. In Down the Line conditions and with a well drifting kite the feeling you get is just amazing.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby TomW » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:38 pm

Gunnar, what mast length and board are you using for these slow speed wings?

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gmb13
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Re: Go Foil powered by a kite for waveriding

Postby gmb13 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:43 pm

TomW wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:38 pm
Gunnar, what mast length and board are you using for these slow speed wings?
The Board is pretty much up to you. I use anything from my EXO to the 5'4" Takuma teaching Boards.

In clean conditions the 60cm mast is fine. The 70cm is probably the best one for fast turns. 90cm is a bit slow to turn, but easier for people who are used to this standard length.

--
Gunnar


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