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17m vs 14m LEI?

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BWD
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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby BWD » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:37 am

trimming the hell out of the foil on the fly or is the foil further ahead in the window
Yes, both.
I have been learning foiling this year with a zeeko carver wing and a paipo and every session since May has been with 12m or 9m cloud.
The max wind I have seen is about 15-17 and that was overpowering me with the 9.
A few days ago i went out with the 12m cloud, carver wing and 10 knots.
But by the time I walked out past the sandbars, it was more like 8, and 8 is being generous. There were big lulls and times I had to downloop the kite, walk upwind, grab center lines and other tricks, to keep the kite in the air. But when a 7 or 8 knot "gust" came I could get moving, and turning downwind with the small, 6"-ish chop let me get on foil, no problems after that. Until I needed to restart, then it was a little wait for the right puff/wave combination, again. I was very surprised it worked, and for me with a total of <10 sessions.
Based on my experience, at 80 kg, I would say a 14 LEI is definitely enough for any wind it will fly in unless you are significantly >80kg and using a hydrofoil not meant for light wind.

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby platslagarn » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:08 am

My weight is 115kg.. 12m LEI is perfekt from 4m/s im flying easy. (I have a 600 F-one frontwing )

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby plummet » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:29 am

Biggest lei I use is an 8m. I use that down to 10 knots. Bellow that its 12m chrono time. But in all honest I cant be stuffed with sub 10. I'll go ride my mountain bike.

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby Craz Z » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:25 pm

I ride a 14m as my largest light wind kite. Anything over that is a no go. I hate blowing them up as you've found relaunch is a bitch in sub winds and the pull is usually to much for foiling. Even on the 14 the second i'm on foil bar out trim all the way.

We get very shitty winds here in the summer the 14 is great for lull munching. Kites i do believe play a role as well. I thought a rally was the ticket and found it to be slow and way to much torque for foiling.(the smaller rallys are still perfect I love em, but for some reason the 14m is a semi truck.) You wanna faster kite that you can shut down the power some but keep it flying. I'm on a pivot now and love it.

I will never ride a foil kite again and would never consider them no matter how great they maybe for foiling or otherwise. They might work great on coastal steady winds but for inland thermal puffs and wacko wind shifts they are disaster waiting to happen. Put it in the water and they are game over and become an anchor not to mention all the other frustrating things that come with them. Now if i lived in an area with much more reliable winds that don't drop to zero and back to 15 or switch 360 degrees and back to the regular wind direction I might change my mind on them, but then price is always the next problem with a quality foil kite i can buy a full blown carbon setup or a nice used car before purchasing a high aspect foil kite.

The true beauty of foiling in shitty winds is the efficiency of them. I can spend up to a half hour drifting down wind until I can get my kite relaunched again. normally this is a recipe for a serious long walk and borderline panic on a surfboard or twintip. (My comfort level in the water went from i'm completely screwed to oh well i'll get it on the next puff.) Once the kite hits the air again I can tack back to where i started or beyond within a few minutes of decent wind. Also downwinding has been a absolute blast on the foil love going straight downwind twirling the kite to engaging the foils raging speed straight back up wind. TOTAL GAMECHANGER

I think some line extensions are also in order and may try that to increase the inefficiency of the kite to get on foil faster cause once your on foil its hold on to your hat.

I agree with everyone else is correct 12-14m is all u need and if u need more it gets to be really challenging. I've seen others go out on 17m and if it hits the water they need to self rescue immediately as its never coming back out of the water unless the wind picks up a bit.

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby SENDIT! » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:44 pm

I'm still relatively early in my foiling proficiency and weigh 230 lbs. I've discovered I can ride a 12m Flite in 12 mph and almost need to depower a smidge once I'm up and going. I tried it in 10 mph and it wasn't enough to get me up and going. If I could've gotten moving, it probably would've been enough. I have successfully ridden the 17m Flite in 8 mph and was riding just fine. I only stopped b/c I couldn't go toeside/ or jibe yet, so while I was stopped in the water flipping the board around, I was concerned I was going to drop the kite on myself. Not sure what my upper limit is on this set up is, but I look forward to finding out! ;)

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby davesails7 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:48 pm

lovethepirk wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:56 am
I've seen advanced riders 30 pounds less than me riding 18m foil kites in 10-12mph winds. How in the hell are they doing this? Are they trimming the hell out of the foil on the fly or is the foil further ahead in the window to not pull them so hard into the board whereby you're doing a 400pound leg press the entire tack?

edit: btw...is the Pansh Aurora 2 really only 350$? Would that have the grunt to get me up as much as the 17m Contra? I could see trying that kite maybe in the future to abuse and learn on for cheap.
The big difference when riding with a lot of power for racing is you are going upwind or downwind. Going 90 degrees to the wind will get you out of control speed that's hard to handle.

Yeah, upwind you pull the depower. Downwind you let it out.

When you load up a race foil kite going upwind it just goes flys forward in the window and pulls you upwind. I know what you mean about the truck feeling of the lower aspect lei. The race foil kite just fly differently. The race LEIs (edge, boost, velocity) will fly forward also, but not as much.

The foil kite down sides listed above are a bit of an exaggeration :) there are downsides, but in light winds (anything less than 15) there is no comparison on the performance and I would never go back to lei. The foil kite do relaunch, and they're not an anchor. When they can't relaunch because there's no wind, you just roll it up and put it on your board. They don't sink, they have air inside. I do agree in crazy gusty swirly wind through, an lei would be a better choice.

Look at the foil kite forum for pansh reviews. It seems like if you pick the right model, they are pretty good. Sometimes though people have gotten a dud that just doesn't fly at all which is a disappointment for a new kite from the factory. Otherwise You can get a used race foil kite for $800 to $900.

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:13 am

lovethepirk wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:56 am
Snip...

I've seen advanced riders 30 pounds less than me riding 18m foil kites in 10-12mph winds. How in the hell are they doing this? Are they trimming the hell out of the foil on the fly or is the foil further ahead in the window to not pull them so hard into the board whereby you're doing a 400pound leg press the entire tack?

Snip...

The race foil kites, even if not trimming/adjusting (which many can only do to a certain smaller amount), has an extreme upper end, and also low end when flown fast.
You can stand on the beach in ridiculously high winds with a high AR foil kite, and it just hangs there overhead, no pull whatsoever, eventhough it might have TWICE the size than the LEI kite you would choose to ride in the conditions this day, it is a remarkably big windrange because of this.

So one could say a racefoilkite has almost zero grunt, at least those with miminum (which is why some have to get used to riding these, if never tried one before), but at the same time maybe up to 50 % more (available) power when ridden and/or flown fast :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Amazing !

For racing you go deep downwind and high angles upwind, so here you dont get overpowered like you would going halfwind like we do in waves or when freeriding/freestyling, as you simply go faster and deeper instead, or go even higher, so that is the other difference as Dave also point out.

So an 18 m2 racefoilkite, or a 15, maybe corresponds to only an 8 or max a 10 m2 grunty LEI kite, in terms of how long you can stand on the beach without getting too much pull.
Even better, the other way around, a 10 or 12 m2 racefoilkite has a peak power when flown at speed, that equals or maybe beat the pull from a 15 to 18 m2 LEI kite (and most of these would never work in low winds) :thumb:

No wonder they are so loved :heartface:

8) PF

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby cwood » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:07 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:13 am
lovethepirk wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:56 am
Snip...

I've seen advanced riders 30 pounds less than me riding 18m foil kites in 10-12mph winds. How in the hell are they doing this? Are they trimming the hell out of the foil on the fly or is the foil further ahead in the window to not pull them so hard into the board whereby you're doing a 400pound leg press the entire tack?

Snip...

The race foil kites, even if not trimming/adjusting (which many can only do to a certain smaller amount), has an extreme upper end, and also low end when flown fast.
You can stand on the beach in ridiculously high winds with a high AR foil kite, and it just hangs there overhead, no pull whatsoever, eventhough it might have TWICE the size than the LEI kite you would choose to ride in the conditions this day, it is a remarkably big windrange because of this.

So one could say a racefoilkite has almost zero grunt, at least those with miminum (which is why some have to get used to riding these, if never tried one before), but at the same time maybe up to 50 % more (available) power when ridden and/or flown fast :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Amazing !

For racing you go deep downwind and high angles upwind, so here you dont get overpowered like you would going halfwind like we do in waves or when freeriding/freestyling, as you simply go faster and deeper instead, or go even higher, so that is the other difference as Dave also point out.

So an 18 m2 racefoilkite, or a 15, maybe corresponds to only an 8 or max a 10 m2 grunty LEI kite, in terms of how long you can stand on the beach without getting too much pull.
Even better, the other way around, a 10 or 12 m2 racefoilkite has a peak power when flown at speed, that equals or maybe beat the pull from a 15 to 18 m2 LEI kite (and most of these would never work in low winds) :thumb:

No wonder they are so loved :heartface:

8) PF
An excellent description! So true. I would say applies to lower AR versions as well like the speed5.

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby TomW » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:01 pm

So I'm 80 kg on a Moses 548 and 550 front wing foil. Freeriding only, 80 kgs. Never had a foil kite.
Can a foil kite work good from 8-20 knots? If so which one and size?

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Re: 17m vs 14m LEI?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:37 pm

TomW wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:01 pm
So I'm 80 kg on a Moses 548 and 550 front wing foil. Freeriding only, 80 kgs. Never had a foil kite.
Can a foil kite work good from 8-20 knots? If so which one and size?

A 9-10 m2 racefoilkite will let you ride in 8 knots, and when experienced you should also be able to ride in 20, eventhough powered a lot, on the very upper end, but just possible to cover the range with this size yes.
But not very "sweetspot" like of course, in neither end...

I dont like these kites myself (much slower, too much peak, too risky in the water), and avoid them, but the only possible choice when below 7 knots of wind, and they are beautiful instead of all our balloons :thumb:

8) PF


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