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The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

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TomW
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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby TomW » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:35 pm

Today I discovered something. I'm on my second session trying to do heel to toeside gybes in air and continuing toeside.
Everyone said to keep kite high before turning, but I kept losing power. Ewhat I was doing wrong was bearing off too much.
What I had to do was bring kite to 12 as I bear UPWIND, maintaining pressure in lines, then turn kite quite aggressively and carve around. more of a keyhole turn, more than 180 degree turn.
This helps keep pressure on lines.
This allowed me to do some really smooth carves with good control.

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby dylan* » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:11 pm

TomW wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:35 pm
Today I discovered something. I'm on my second session trying to do heel to toeside gybes in air and continuing toeside.
Everyone said to keep kite high before turning, but I kept losing power. Ewhat I was doing wrong was bearing off too much.
What I had to do was bring kite to 12 as I bear UPWIND, maintaining pressure in lines, then turn kite quite aggressively and carve around. more of a keyhole turn, more than 180 degree turn.
This helps keep pressure on lines.
This allowed me to do some really smooth carves with good control.
you can also just downloop the kite instead. since you're riding downwind it wont pull very hard, but will fly more consistently through the turn than just bringing it over your head.

most of my session-enders with the kite hitting the water are from too big of a downloop and the wingtip catching the surface, so i usually do what you said when gybing. every time i spend the 15 minutes drifting in with my kite on the water from a botched downloop turn, i wish i'd just done that :lol:

TomW
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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby TomW » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:38 pm

Dylan,

I'm probably ready to try downloop. How do set up the turn?
My guess is to put kite at 1100, keep tension on lines by keeping slightly upwind, then bear off into turn while downlooping.

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:31 am

TomW wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:35 pm
Today I discovered something. I'm on my second session trying to do heel to toeside gybes in air and continuing toeside.
Everyone said to keep kite high before turning, but I kept losing power. Ewhat I was doing wrong was bearing off too much.
What I had to do was bring kite to 12 as I bear UPWIND, maintaining pressure in lines, then turn kite quite aggressively and carve around. more of a keyhole turn, more than 180 degree turn.
This helps keep pressure on lines.
This allowed me to do some really smooth carves with good control.

Hi Tom

The advice you have been given are plain wrong IMO :wink:

Maybe because you have used the word jibe (or gybe), which involves changing feet, as then it is correct, the majority fly the kite high, change feet, and downloop the kite while turning around (the "race" method).

For carving around (not jibing), you should fly the kite pretty low max 45 degrees, and head upwind - then you can do a smooth fluid carve without getting slack lines, and you can even keep momentum (continue on foil) in really light wind, when you have learned the timing.

If you fly the kite high, none of it will work, you will lose power and you will also end up in the new direction toeside with slack lines or at least no power as the kite is too far forward.

The trick is to steer the kite around during the turn, in sync - then it will all work.

For jibing, the same as above is done, but on the way out of the turn, you switch feet when the kite start to lift a bit, but before heading upwind so it pulls you sideways - that is all there is too it (and maybe more than a thousand try's)


Downlooping can be done in two ways:
You head upwind at first, kite really high, and then you downloop during the carve.
Smooth and cool, but risky as you might get slack lines (if light wind or you turn to wide), which results in the kite going in the drink :o
The other way, which can also be done going really fast deep downwind, is to carve around first, and then downloop the kite afterwards - this will keep tension in the lines and no risk.
Somewhere in between these two are also possible, and will often work the best.


So no, for carving without downloop you should NOT start with the kite high, the more wind the lower it can be, and still give a perfect carve :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby K-Roy » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:55 am

+1

"For carving around (not jibing), you should fly the kite pretty low max 45 degrees, and head upwind - then you can do a smooth fluid carve without getting slack lines, and you can even keep momentum (continue on foil) in really light wind, when you have learned the timing."

if I might add:

In light wind, when the lines go slack a bit, don't panic, hold the bar in position and concentrate on your foil "only". Try to maintain speed/hight and drive away from the kite, when lines tight again you all good.
You will be surprised, how much "flying error" you can compensate.

cheers

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:39 pm

Any time the stern crosses the wind it's a gybe. If the bow crosses the wind it's a tack. Foot movement doesn't change the terminology. If you'd prefer to say, "gybe without foot change," that would be a better way to describe the situation.

There is a reason to respect the terminology of sailing. If you're ever in a situation where there's a right of way dispute with another kiter or another vessel, either under sail or under power, you should understand the correct language so you can defend your actions in the event of an emergency. Telling the coast guard that you "hadn't tacked yet" because you didn't switch your feet will do NOTHING to resolve a maritime dispute. Even outside the Racing Rules of Sailing there are the COLREGs which prescribe specific terminology for referring to craft powered by the wind, these include right of way judgments that rely on terms like "port tack" or "starboard tack" to delineate responsibility for maneuvering in a crossing situation.

However unlikely this scenario may seem, it's unhelpful and possibly dangerous to encourage sailors and riders to create proprietary language in kiteboarding when standard nautical terms are available and easily understood.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:12 pm

Why make it so complicated ?

Jibe or Gybe means the stern crosses the wind, and is implicit a foot change too, just like in sailing where you switch side in the dinghy/cata/trimaran.

Carving around is without a foot change, just like when riding waves where a bottom turn is a carve, and definitely not a jibe, NEVER, as you will carve back when hitting the wave.

It can not be easier than that, and how almost everybody I know use this term for simplicity.

What emergencies or disputes are you talking about ? Have never seen any...
Starboard and port tack still counts, that is the primary issue in a dispute in general.
But yes, there could be special situations where it matters, but this does not change how we use the terms on forums in daily use :D

I disagree hugely, that it is unhelpful and possibly dangerous, this is pure nonsense if you take a step back and look at it :wink:

The sailing terms does not work fully for us, something lacks, so we have to make an addition to the terms to be able to be more detailed in daily easy use :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:23 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:12 pm
Why make it so complicated ?

Jibe or Gybe means the stern crosses the wind, and is implicit a foot change too, just like in sailing where you switch side in the dinghy/cata/trimaran.
Is it still a jibe if the boat is big enough that the crew doesn't need to change sides to balance it? I thought the important bit was stern through the wind...

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:10 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:12 pm
Why make it so complicated ?

Jibe or Gybe means the stern crosses the wind, and is implicit a foot change too, just like in sailing where you switch side in the dinghy/cata/trimaran.
There's no implied foot change. To say that you gybed means that you reversed course by turning downwind, full stop.
Carving around is without a foot change, just like when riding waves where a bottom turn is a carve, and definitely not a jibe, NEVER, as you will carve back when hitting the wave.
You're literally trying to redefine a word that has specific definition, why? Is it more useful to the community to have 4 terms for changing direction instead of 2? The foot change is secondary to how the carve and kite are combined together.
What emergencies or disputes are you talking about ? Have never seen any...
"I was on starboard tack in the channel when a sailboat who was on port tack crossed in front of me and fouled my lines. The guy sued me because during the incident his main GPS antenna broke off. When we went to small claims court I won because I know the difference between port tack/starboard tack and I used correct legal sailing terminology for a vessel engaged in navigation on inland waterways."

^whether that's a real situation or not, it's responsible seamanship to know the correct terms and apply them to various situations. If we all get on the same page, the discussions on this forum will foster responsible behavior and a clear understanding of the rules. You don't have to fall in love with being a "sailor" exactly, but make no mistake that sailing is exactly what you're doing when you're operating a craft of any sort powered by the wind. That's a legal definition as compared to a motorboat that is otherwise more maneuverable as it's not restrained by wind-power.
The sailing terms does not work fully for us
If the words tack and gybe don't work for you, try harder. It really won't be that big a deal to use real sailing terms once you take a step back and look at it :wink:

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:04 pm

Why this aversion against using a more nuanced and detailed description of what we do out there, when we share and respond here ?

Apparently it is needed, and nothing goes off any legal situations or anything else whatsoever, you are still changing direction and tack no matter what you call it.

Racers dont give a f... as it does not concern them, but for the majority not racing, it makes everything easier when using simple more describing words instead of long sentences, for the things we really care highly about and do, also the NO DOUBT most important and very discussed topic, namely how to carve and how to jibe :rollgrin:

Carving for turning around without switching feet, and jibing when also switching feet :D

But of course, if most in here do not want to distinguish easily between one or another type of turn, I rest my case.

8) PF


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