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The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

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cglazier
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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby cglazier » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:10 pm

One other tip. Turn and look where you want to go. You board will always follow where you look.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:20 pm

jash999 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Peter, when 'yaw'ing the board around before the downloop, are you keeping the board / foil flat at the same height and just sort of twisting the board around with hips/ feet, or do you first drop the board closer to the water, then twist / yaw and push on the back foot to bring the board back to level at the same time, doing a sort of spiral turn in one motion?

No no, way too complicated :o

The thing is, that ALL of us, will lack the ability to turn correctly when learning hydrofoiling, as we are used to surfboards, skateboards, snowboards, bikes - you name it, where it does not work the same way as on a foil.

The skilled ones will learn extremely fast and intuitively, as always.

But most of us mediocre or aged, will need a lot of "un-learning" our wrong motoric habits :wink:
When you have learned, you almost can not understand how it could be so difficult, as you JUST DO IT, without thinking, and you carve around leaning hard into the turn as when carving on a surfboard and it feels the same way :thumb:

But this is not natural at first, in fact the opposite almost :roll:

There is only one single thing you need to focus on, and that is the yaw or twist or drive with your front foot and knee into the turn, that is all there is to it, and the rest will come easy and natural during this learning period, which can be quite long for some (just a fact, dont let it get to any of you...)

You should not put the foil down lower or higher or spiral or anything, just ride with the mast at medium height, and think about this "yaw" input you need to turn the hydrofoil - then the rest will follow as said.

Of course, you should not stand upright and do the yaw movement, nor should you lean over and expect the yaw to arrive - start learning to ride zig zag first doing very subtle carves just 20-30 degrees back and fourth, either with the kite parked, or flying the kite actively up and down - does not matter but is the important way to learn to control your foil in terms of yaw.

Then you should try to carve fully around, and think "yaw" as said, and just do it over and over again.

PS: I still advice not to downloop when learning.


I just browsed through my unused kitecam pics, and this one demonstrates how you can lean into the carve, it feels great :rollgrin:

Carve.jpg

With less speed (as sometimes in lighter wind) you will not lean as much of course.

But when mastered, then a really good and fun move is to try to carve so fast and tight that you can drag your hand in the water on the inside of the turn :D

Think about the yaw, to learn to carve - and later you wont think about anything, you just do it and can change to other boards and the muscle memory skills will still be "intact" and change accordingly to the different boards.

Hope this helps.

8) PF

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby salvino » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:05 pm

Peter, nice clarity.
I'm beginning on my tacks and have made a few (3). The yaw focus makes sense. I noticed my best attempts and success was when I just relaxed and stopped trying the new move and carved like crazy (for fun) and then just did a tack.

In fact that is my learning plan for next session.

Those tacks done in that sequence were way better than if I tried to break them down into sub parts as was performing them.

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby jash999 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:40 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:20 pm
jash999 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Peter, when 'yaw'ing the board around before the downloop, are you keeping the board / foil flat at the same height and just sort of twisting the board around with hips/ feet, or do you first drop the board closer to the water, then twist / yaw and push on the back foot to bring the board back to level at the same time, doing a sort of spiral turn in one motion?

No no, way too complicated :o

The thing is, that ALL of us, will lack the ability to turn correctly when learning hydrofoiling, as we are used to surfboards, skateboards, snowboards, bikes - you name it, where it does not work the same way as on a foil.

The skilled ones will learn extremely fast and intuitively, as always.

But most of us mediocre or aged, will need a lot of "un-learning" our wrong motoric habits :wink:
When you have learned, you almost can not understand how it could be so difficult, as you JUST DO IT, without thinking, and you carve around leaning hard into the turn as when carving on a surfboard and it feels the same way :thumb:

But this is not natural at first, in fact the opposite almost :roll:

There is only one single thing you need to focus on, and that is the yaw or twist or drive with your front foot and knee into the turn, that is all there is to it, and the rest will come easy and natural during this learning period, which can be quite long for some (just a fact, dont let it get to any of you...)

You should not put the foil down lower or higher or spiral or anything, just ride with the mast at medium height, and think about this "yaw" input you need to turn the hydrofoil - then the rest will follow as said.

Of course, you should not stand upright and do the yaw movement, nor should you lean over and expect the yaw to arrive - start learning to ride zig zag first doing very subtle carves just 20-30 degrees back and fourth, either with the kite parked, or flying the kite actively up and down - does not matter but is the important way to learn to control your foil in terms of yaw.

Then you should try to carve fully around, and think "yaw" as said, and just do it over and over again.

PS: I still advice not to downloop when learning.


I just browsed through my unused kitecam pics, and this one demonstrates how you can lean into the carve, it feels great :rollgrin:


Carve.jpg


With less speed (as sometimes in lighter wind) you will not lean as much of course.

But when mastered, then a really good and fun move is to try to carve so fast and tight that you can drag your hand in the water on the inside of the turn :D

Think about the yaw, to learn to carve - and later you wont think about anything, you just do it and can change to other boards and the muscle memory skills will still be "intact" and change accordingly to the different boards.

Hope this helps.

8) PF
OK, so bit of confusion here. I have no problem downlooping and carving to toeside on the foil to make a turn. But switching feet on foil after the turn back to heelside is still very iffy, and ends in touching down. I also have no problem switching feet before the turn, touching down and downlooping out of the turn. What i was asking about was how to switch feet before the turn without touching down. I find I lose speed and board drops down, so i put more weight on the back, but that often leads to a crash. I think maybe the 'yawing' will help to stay on the foil during the foot switch / downloop stage?

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:59 am

Sorry, you were talking jibing, I was explaining how to learn to carve/turn, as the last pages here was about how to carve... :roll:

8) PF

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby jash999 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:46 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:59 am
Sorry, you were talking jibing, I was explaining how to learn to carve/turn, as the last pages here was about how to carve... :roll:

8) PF

I guess there is no way to escape the mixing up of the term 'gybe' in sailing and the 'gybe' in kiting. Maybe we will always need to define the kiting gybe with foot switch by something like 'transition gybe'. I thought that was what your post referred to. I skipped all the previous posts about the definition of gybe, since that part of the thread will probably never end!!

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby TomW » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:10 pm

PF defines a gybe as first switching feet then turning downwind and around.
A carve is when you go from heel to toeside in a turn, not switching feet.
The thread debated this and PF still uses this definition.

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:31 pm

TomW wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:10 pm
PF defines a gybe as first switching feet then turning downwind and around.
A carve is when you go from heel to toeside in a turn, not switching feet.
The thread debated this and PF still uses this definition.

Precisely, although to make it complete:

A jibe (or gybe) is when you turn downwind to the other tack and switch feet too (no matter when you do this, going in or during or on the way out).
A carve is when you go from heel to toeside in a turn, or from toeside to heelside (usually when going back from toeside).

It makes things easier and less confusing when using the terms like that for something we all discuss often (carving and jibing), but unfortunately not everybody agree and wont use these conventions, thus the confusion will continue :(

A tack to toeside could also be described as a carve - but as this is not done or discussed as often, we might as well just use the full lenght sentences here.

Above just my recommendations of course, regarding how to make it easy on the forum :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby cglazier » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:04 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:31 pm
A jibe (or gybe) is when you turn downwind to the other tack and switch feet too (no matter when you do this, going in or during or on the way out).
A carve is when you go from heel to toeside in a turn, or from toeside to heelside (usually when going back from toeside).

It makes things easier and less confusing when using the terms like that for something we all discuss often (carving and jibing), but unfortunately not everybody agree and wont use these conventions, thus the confusion will continue :(

A tack to toeside could also be described as a carve - but as this is not done or discussed as often, we might as well just use the full lenght sentences here.

Above just my recommendations of course, regarding how to make it easy on the forum :thumb:

8) PF
Hi Peter
I respectfully disagree.

A jibe (or gybe) is when you turn downwind and go from one tack (port or starboard) to the other (starboard or port). It has nothing to do with your feet.
A tack is the same but you turn upwind instead of downwind and again it has nothing to do with feet.

Do you seriously think that if you turn downwind going from port to starboard and then wait a while to switch feet it will only then suddenly become a jibe after a foot switch? ..Nonsense. The jibe occurred when you went from one tack to the other.

Some kiteboarders do not have sailing experience, but that is no excuse for not learning the correct nautical terms which have been used for hundreds of years. Here is text from Wikipedia
A jibe (US) or gybe (Britain) is a sailing maneuver whereby a sailing vessel reaching downwind turns its stern through the wind, such that the wind direction changes from one side of the boat to the other.
..
The other way to change the side of the boat that faces the wind is turning the bow of the boat into, and then through, the direction of the wind. This operation is known as tacking or coming about. ..


I'm just trying to help everyone understand nautical terms here. :D

:wink: CG

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Re: The secret to easier air gibes and tacks?

Postby alexrider » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:13 pm

I'm with CG regarding the use of correct nautical terms.
The kite community could agree however on the terms wrt foot change. Gibing without foot change, I often heard it called S-gibe, but it was usually referring to a series of gibes. Tacking without foot change is called a 180, but it's confusing because tacks with foot change and gibes are also 180s.
If there is a requirement for rigour, I'd suggest using something like "concluded" gibes and tacks when followed by foot change and "provisional" gibes and tacks when the feet remain in place. Ideas?


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