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Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

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Bletti
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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Bletti » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:05 pm

spork wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:29 am
I'm thinking maybe that was too much of a screaming deal (or a typo). It's now listed at $949 rather than $499...

https://www.elitewatersports.com/produc ... package-2/

The rocket foil is a different, better foil by LF so it looks like they ran out of the cheap stock (it is a black friday sale after all).

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby spork » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:14 pm

To me it looks like the same foil with a different board.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby gmb13 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:41 pm

SparD wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:10 pm
Anyone order one of these ?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Top-Qua ... 8f1eafd7cb
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/brand-n ... 8f1eafd7cb
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-St ... 8f1eafd7cb

Looks a lot like Liftfoil but with fixed fuselage and dismountable wings.

It should be lighter than the Takuma clone which I read is 5,9 kg !
Hi Everyone,

I actually just tested this one yesterday. A friend of mine brought it.

So here is a short review:

Build Quality:

Horrible. These are not full carbon. The mast and Fuselage are G10 wrapped in 1 layer of 300g Fibreglass and a 80g Carbon layer on the surface for show.
On the mast the Carbon was already delaminating at the trailing edge.

The connections to the wings are flimsy versions of the Go Foil system and there is a lot of play in them. These will eventually work themselves loose and break. The Mast to plate and mast to fuselage connections are also badly finished with quite a good amount of play as there are gaps.

Ride:

I put it on my sup on the most forward position as it has almost no profile thickness compared to a real SUP/Surf foil. It still needed to be at least 15cm farther forward in my opinion.

It needs a lot of speed to lift off, and it's pretty much impossible to pump the foil easily making it very hard to get up on the foil in small stuff. Once it is up any flying it tasks a good amount of skill to control the pitch. The roll stability was ok when flying at speed. But this is nothing like a Go Foil or Takuma. It is just like taking a Kitefoil to go Surf Foiling. It works, but not really well, and it's not really fun. Maybe in really big waves where you can keep the high speeds it has a niche, but for small waves or downwind pumping you can forget it.

--
Gunnar
Last edited by gmb13 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby tautologies » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:48 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:41 pm
Hi Everyone,

I actually just tested this one yesterday. A friend of mine brought it.

So here is a short review:

Build Quality:

Horrible. These are not full carbon. The mast and Fuselage are G10 wrapped in 1 layer of 300g Fibreglass and a 80g Carbon layer on the surface for show.
On the mast the Carbon was already delaminating at the trailing edge.

The connections to the wings are flimsy versions of the Go Foil system and there is a lot of play in them. These will eventually work themselves loose and break. The Mast to plate and mast to plate connections are also badly finished with quite a good amount of play as there are gaps.

Ride:

I put it on my sup on the most forward position as it has almost no profile thickness compared to a real SUP/Surf foil. It still needed to be at least 15cm farther forward in my opinion.

It needs a lot of speed to lift off, and it's pretty much impossible to pump the foil easily making it very hard to get up on the foil in small stuff. Once it is up any flying it tasks a good amount of skill to control the pitch. The roll stability was ok when flying at speed. But this is nothing like a Go Foil or Takuma. It is just like taking a Kitefoil to go Surf Foiling. It works, but not really well, and it's not really fun. Maybe in really big waves where you can keep the high speeds it has a niche, but for small waves or downwind pumping you can forget it.

--
Gunnar
:D :thumb:

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Mad_dan » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:58 am

spork wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:58 am
Personally I think $499 for a complete FoilFish is a screaming deal. I thought it was a pretty damn good deal when I bought mine 2 years ago for $1000.
It was a used one I think.....

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby zerogee_ca » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:59 am

Buyer beware! I am an industrial radiographer and I have xrayed various castings from China for client's that out sourced to Chinese foundries. Here's my experience with Chinese quality control. I can be nonexistent.

Castings start out like crap, swiss cheese internally (normal in appearance on external surface). The ugliest castings I have ever seen. Even casting repairs filled with pieces of nuts and bolts then welded. Would never pass code ever.

If the client has a rep in China to keep an eye on things, things improve. The castings will just pass code (may needs some repairs on some castings) but still not as nice as those produced in North America.

If the rep is not there full time for the entire run, the quality returns to crap.

In addition, I would never turn in xrays that look like the Chinese xrays. Terrible quality. Every kind of film artifact (marks) possible, inadequate ID, and under exposed. It's all good when you can't see inside. 🤣

Since these Foils are knock offs, the quality control is likely not there. Could be subject to poor fit and finish externally. Internally could have cheaper cores, cheap layup materials, even dry spots in the layup or poor layup (lack of overlaps). Bondo or paint covering mistakes. Who knows?? Sometimes you get what you pay for. 🤓

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby hongchew » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:44 am

Some people bitch about bad quality Chinese products, some people bitch about good Chinese products that sell for cheap. Really, no one put a gun to your head to force you buy one way or the other.

Don't get me started on the quality on them European and American products like cars.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby gmb13 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:06 am

Made in China does not automatically make it bad. Actually Chinese products are great. For the most part all the stuff you buy nowadays if made in China or Asia.

It is up to the Brand or designer to decide how the Foils are made and with which materials. So when you buy a knockoff, you are usually getting something that is made a bit cheaper. The guys ripping off the designs typically have no idea what the will be used for and will make it the cheapest way possible to maximise margins. Hence using cheap fiberglass instead of carbon, etc. etc.

I have been contacted by these Chinese factories too and they will make these foils with better materials if I wanted. But I don't. And here is why. I believe that people should be rewarded for their hard work in the small niche industry. Guys like Alex Aguera, Nicolas Calliou, the guys from Takuma etc have put a lot of work into bringing us great products. If we as consumers do not appreciate this work and they do not get something out of it, innovation will slow down or even stop. Every rip off china foil that is bought is basically taking money out of the pockets of the people who made this sport possible.

The entry of the big brands like North and Naish late in the game and producing Foiling Products with little to no innovation of their own, taking away market share from the brands and designers who actually innovate, is bad enough and demotivating to see.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Kykeon » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:40 pm

Gunnar I’m a big fan of your videos and your contribution to the community.
You’ve shared plenty of knowledge and we are all very grateful for it.

I’m sure we all find it immoral and bad to bluntly copy a product
But I’m afraid your presentation is a bit one-sided and with the wrong conclusions...
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:06 am
... Every rip off china foil that is bought is basically taking money out of the pockets of the people who made this sport possible...


What about the person that has a potential HF spending limit below the current “non-Chinese” offering.
These are monies that anyway do not go to “the pockets of the people who made this sport possible”
With the Chinese offering, at least this guy can get a first taste of what is it about and potentially spend more in the future

Would you extend your argument to somebody buying used gear? Why not?
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:41 pm
…These will eventually work themselves loose and break…
And if they are so crappy that they break, here you have it!
One buys them, gets into the sport, he is addicted and then buys a “Non Chinese foil” to feed his new passion.

Again: It is bad to bluntly copy somebody work or to steal something.

But I find it ok to get inspired from something and try to improve it in one way or another.
The current premium designs are inspired from something that existed in the past and evolved.
We are all happy that HF is not patented and only one person/company is allowed make them.
(The morality of patents and whether they serve the public or the few is another discussion)
gmb13 wrote: The entry of the big brands like North and Naish late in the game and producing Foiling Products with little to no innovation of their own, taking away market share from the brands and designers who actually innovate, is bad enough and demotivating to see.
Considering their lower cost, these products may be innovative in their manufacturing or material selection.
Yes, INFERIOR but also CHEAPER! Thus serving another crowd. Those not willing to spend as much but willing to take a risk.
Also their distribution (direct through merchant platform ) if not innovative is at least modern

I’ve chosen Zeeko and I’m happy with the quality and also the support (They sent me a free replacement for an imperfection)
For sure a 400$ Chinese foil would not have the same quality and I would get no support at all.

On the other hand, I wanted to try a foil kite but a) Nobody around here had one b) There was no rental/lesson around c) I don’t have the knowledge to evaluate a used one + there are not many around d) Even the used price was too expensive just for trying.

I bought a Pansh for ¼ of the price of FS or Ozone. I’m sure it is inferior, it was a risk, there is no support and I’ve spent a few hours on improvements (pigtails, 5th line shortening and chicken loop change) but I’m happy with it and there was no way. I would have spent upfront what FS or Ozone was asking for. On the contrary now that I know what kite foiling is about I may buy a FS as an upgrade one day.

You can't resist market changes with protectionism, the only way is to keep evolving and be ahead of the game.
(Professionally I'm in the same red queen race, Charge a premium while unique and invest it to get another product ahead of the market soon)

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby spork » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:01 pm

It is bad to bluntly copy somebody work or to steal something.
It's fine to say that it's "bad" to copy someone's work. But it's all too common to accuse people of stealing others' designs. If it's not patented, and there's no contract or NDA in place, it's not stealing. I'm not suggesting it's not bad, but it's not stealing.

That being said, there's a continuum between copying and developing something that's 100% novel. Almost no one ever creates something that's 100% novel. So the question is - how much do you have to change something for it not to be "bad"?


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