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Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

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Sandras
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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Sandras » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:04 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:54 am
What I am saying is: If I had never seen a Carafino, I would not have gotten into foiling back then. If the Carafino was actually a really well developed product, we would have never gotten into building one ourselves. However we saw a lot of things wrong with it and other Hydrofoils at the time (mainly the one piece T-Bar) and I wanted something better for myself.
What the Chinese are saying:
If there was a cheaper version we wouldn’t even bother competing.
However in a world of Audis we saw a market segment for Skoda’s, second grade materials and less strict quality checks but still an acceptable product at a fraction of the price.

They innovate the way Ryanair innovated! (And now copied from premium airlines with baggage as an extra)

Bluntly copying a design is immoral, even if done with different materials and I wouldn’t buy one mainly on moral grounds.
But I’m looking forward to seeing a generic “Chinese” 3rd party/aftermarket big (early lift) front wing for popular foils (LF, Slingshot, Zeeko, Moses etc) Strighy style
I’m sure that’s possible for their level. Anyway these designs are easier to get right.

If I were in their (Chinese) shoes, I would make an average of the existing “wave wings” (Maybe Zeeko Carver as a basis) and adjust the holes & aoa to fit the target fuselages.
Offer it at or below cost level for riders willing to test it and iterate a few rounds of improvements validation. (Send improved version to those that gave valuable feedback for low or no cost)
After getting an acceptable product in durability and performance, there should be still enough margin for half the “branded” price.
(The above is my assumption, I’m sure many will disagree that such a business case would fly)

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spork
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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby spork » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:25 pm

Sandras wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:04 pm
Bluntly copying a design is immoral, even if done with different materials and I wouldn’t buy one mainly on moral grounds.
Here's a related question just for fun...

Let's say you have a company that uses the "give away the razor to sell the blades" business model. Would you consider it immoral if other companies also sold the blades - even if they were similar enough to fit the razor, but not an exact copy?

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Sandras » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:37 pm

spork wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:25 pm
Here's a related question just for fun...

Let's say you have a company that uses the "give away the razor to sell the blades" business model. Would you consider it immoral if other companies also sold the blades - even if they were similar enough to fit the razor, but not an exact copy?
Heey! BINGO!
That's exactly what I do for living, only that I do not own the company...

I work as product manager and strategist for the biggest manufacturer of industrial gas turbines.
We typically sell the GT/plant for almost zero profit (especially considering the risk) and we make the money from the blades that need replacement every 3 years (20-30.000 operating hours)
The blades as spare parts are very attractive and we have a LOT of competition from cheap "pirates" as we call them.

What we do about it?
A couple of things...
-We innovate and stay ahead of the game. The new generation of blades offer better efficiency or more power or longer operating life.
-We usually sell the plants with long term service agreement so for a few years we have exclusivity. (Easy to do with a brand new plant, harder as they age)
-We change frequently small things in the design not only for improvement but also to fragment our fleet so that it's less attractive for a pirate to enter. (Big reverse engineering investment for a small potential fleet)
-While I was an engineer, we developed reconditioning technology for used blades as a cheaper alternative to buying new blades.
-We bundle our offering with additional services that smaller pirates can't offer. (Controller upgrades, services in auxiliary equipment/controls, monitoring services, operational support etc)
-We facilitate pooled emergency stock of spare blades for many unrelated customers so that they can have them immediately when an unplanned outage happens. (Pirates do not have such large customer base and can't afford such big stock)
-We offer guaranties (performance & longevity) that the pirates can't afford to offer. (Too high risk for them... If one plant has an issue and stays off grid for a couple of weeks they go bankrupt. Our fleet is large and the statistics even out, plus we have cash to back it up)
-Since we designed the product and we also have tons of operating data, we know the issues better and can support better and we also have better reputation.
-If a pirate gets too big to become a threat, we buy them, assimilate their innovations/technology and finally add them in our "pirate" offering against our competing big original equipment manufacturers. (if we can... we did it a couple of times)


In short we play the cards we have as a big company.
It's the name of the game.
If we had based our strategy on stressing the immorality of our competitors I'm not sure we would have gone very far...

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby jakemoore » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:08 pm

Every time this thread gets bumped I find myself contemplating buying a knockoff.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby james » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:47 am

Every time this thread gets bumped a little bit of me dies inside...

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby gmb13 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:20 am

tautologies wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:46 am
gmb13 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:54 am
What I am saying is: If I had never seen a Carafino, I would not have gotten into foiling back then. If the Carafino was actually a really well developed product, we would have never gotten into building one ourselves. However we saw a lot of things wrong with it and other Hydrofoils at the time (mainly the one piece T-Bar) and I wanted something better for myself.

--
Gunnar
So you are saying you copied Carafino and built on an innovation that Mango made? The shift made with Carafino to its predecessor was pretty radical, but he didn't create the first foil anyone kites on.

Also how do you know what the transpired in getting Kai on a foil? Its not like it was the first foil he ever rode. He started foiling way before Aguera made them. I mean I asked Agure to make me a SUP foil probably 6 years ago. He'd never made a foil before then. It didn't pan out, but I am not sure I would necessarily credit him with that innovation. SUP foils existed before that. It becomes very murky when you credit one or a few persons with something they have built based on others.
I' not trying to take anything away from Agurea and his products...my friends love them...but I think your position is a tad tendentious.
The Carafino got me into foiling, but we did not copy it.

Alex made the first really well working SUP foils. I have tried getting SUPfoiling to work well since 2013. Alex was the first to produce proper foils that made it easy. Every other decently working SUP foil since then has pretty much copied his concept with the bigger profiles and wings. So he is the real innovator for SUP foiling. Before that Kai got on a Go Foil he did not get it to work. It was the Go Foil that kicked it all off, so Alex deserves the Honors for making the leap forward that the rest if us did not think of at the time.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby mercakite » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:47 pm

Image
Image

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:33 pm

@mercakite:

Very nice one :thumb: I am a fan :D , but fits maybe better here:

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2390632

Since long wanted to build a symmetrisch foil out of a strut and to toilet lids, your photo inspires me to bring it on the water, to see if it will ride like a toilet :)

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby mercakite » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:06 pm

Horst Sergio wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:33 pm
@mercakite:

Very nice one :thumb: I am a fan :D

Thank you Sergio! :)

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Oldman_Dave » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:17 pm

Back on topic, has anyone tried the slingshot style foil rather than the takuma style?

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 29307.html


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