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Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:23 pm

dylan* wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:38 pm
This might be a stupid question but... if it's too shallow for the foil to be in the water, why not just stand up and walk it out?

Agree Dylan - was about to make a post about this yesterday, but thought I was just "nit-picking" instead of giving anything :wink:

Two things has stroke me in this thread.

Not sure we are all discussing the same thing...
As one thing is to learn to boarddrag at first - another, VERY different is to learn to master marginal wind boarddragging :naughty:

Alex, you show a picture where your kite is really low, when possible to drag like this it is really easy for any experienced hydrofoiler, and I understand you dont kick with your legs in this scenario.

But for absolute marginal winds, where you have to keep the kite very close to 12 o'clock, or maybe even fly it back and fourth a little to keep it in the air - it is a totally different concept, and using your legs to give more apparent wind and thrust, will help hugely - there is a reason why Gunnar (and I) do this, no matter if a foil kite or a light tube or a heavier tube - it helps.

I can not see why it should be better to drag out, than to walk out ?
Even with a 100 cm mast you can walk out a bit further than 100 cm depth :-?

And in marginal winds, even with current, it is much faster and easier than dragging out, not in doubt.

It is only for getting out in shallow water I do it too yes, and no problem no matter if mast on its side or straight down - you walk as far out as you can first, as this is WAY faster than any board drag in marginal winds

If one got an odd spot with big hidden rocks and similar, okay, it could be different and you might not be able to drag mast down, but this is most likely rare occasions.

Personal preference what one likes of course - but the ability from the foil to drag upwind is a bit higher with the mast straight down - but you lose some of the board keel effect so I think (also my experience) it goes even.
Remember, say a 100 cm mast 10 cm average chord equals 1000 cm2. The lift coefficient of a 9-11 % symmetrical profile is about 1.0.
For a front wing say an Eppler 205, it is around 1.1 (but with less drag yes)

Meaning the mast itself corresponds to a 900 cm2 wing in terms of lift, so I think it overall is almost identical in terms of lift with the board into the equation.

Which is probably the reason why there are so many different ways we use, as they are pretty equal in terms of getting upwind :rollgrin:

If loads of seaweed growing on the bottom, I prefer to keep the mast horizontal, if not, I keep it vertical as a lot more relaxed and can focus on working the kite.

In more wind, or with a super light kite, where you can keep it "lower", you can drag out quite comfortably yes, so these are two very different situations.

8) PF

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Slappysan » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:08 am

When you are learning you'll be riding on the surface with the full mast below water and then mess up and sink down up to 1m so you need a total of 2m of water to safely learn without fear of breaking your fuselage, much too deep to walk out.

Really though aside from depth there is no need to body drag with a foil as the upwind on it is amazing even if you are just riding on the water surface. It's actually harder to go downwind that upwind if the wind is light.

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:15 am

Slappysan wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:08 am
When you are learning you'll be riding on the surface with the full mast below water and then mess up and sink down up to 1m so you need a total of 2m of water to safely learn without fear of breaking your fuselage, much too deep to walk out.

Really though aside from depth there is no need to body drag with a foil as the upwind on it is amazing even if you are just riding on the water surface. It's actually harder to go downwind that upwind if the wind is light.

You are right - but it is not just when learning, you also need the 2 m depth (at least more depth and more distance to shallow water) when marginal dead onshore winds
Here your board, even if big, might often sink during the waterstart or looping the kite as it will have "dead" points where you might have to jerk the frontlines.
And even if not "sinking", you will need some downwind space because you can not start and go upwind immediately, but will use a bit, or a lot, of downwind space to get the foil going.

You can of course not walk it out fully no, but we were just not agreeing that it is easier to boarddrag out in the shallows (the first part when going out, less than a meter), than walking out :naughty:

8) PF

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Kykeon » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:25 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:23 pm
...
Not sure we are all discussing the same thing...
As one thing is to learn to boarddrag at first - another, VERY different is to learn to master marginal wind boarddragging :naughty:
...
Indeed! (But I'm glad it is interesting to more people)
I started this thread as I'm waiting my foil (el stubbo & Zeeko) to arrive and thinking how can I start learning to get on the HF board for first time (surface riding).
Swallow water is not an issue at the spots around here are deep fast, after 2m of walking you already have to swim.

My options are:
1) Side on conditions: Body drag for X meters, try to ride for about 2X meters and repeat. At the end I will probably have to walk the accumulated downwind loss. Most of the people around here learned TT this way but took them a bit longer than the option below
2) Pay a rescue service at the downwind spot (super flat) and get collected after 45 minutes. (More luxurious, less tiring but harder to organize)
3) Do a typical local downwinder which is about 1.5km. (get collected with a car - easy to organize) I chicken out to do this before being confident with surface ride because in the middle of the distance you are far from the shore and there are crowded swimmer spots before and after the destination.

I've made my mind to start with a non kiting swim with the foil and then go for 1).
If this is not very efficient, I'll move to 2) or 3).
I should be able to pick the best at that future point in time.

Looking forward to the delivery of the foil & board
Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:23 pm
...
Remember, say a 100 cm mast 10 cm average chord equals 1000 cm2. The lift coefficient of a 9-11 % symmetrical profile is about 1.0.
For a front wing say an Eppler 205, it is around 1.1 (but with less drag yes)

Meaning the mast itself corresponds to a 900 cm2 wing in terms of lift, so I think it overall is almost identical in terms of lift with the board into the equation.

Which is probably the reason why there are so many different ways we use, as they are pretty equal in terms of getting upwind :rollgrin:
...
As for bodydragging technique, after this thread I'll start with the mast down because it sounds the easier and also very efficient. (and the water gets deep fast)

On a pure theoretical point of view:
Having a 10-20deg roll, would give more than 90% of the mast area projected (cosinus(20) ) and additionally will give some board surface as well as potential lift and surface from the wings. Therefore more efficient.
Is this right?
(As I say, I haven't touched a foil yet... glad to be proven wrong... Have to try myself)

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:03 am

Go for #1 Kykeon :thumb:

For a reason you might not have considered:

I have yet to see anyone who can be more than 20 min in the water trying to handle the thing and learn :o

You will get so ridiculously tired the first times when learning, so being able to take some shorter "trys", and then take a small break to regain posture, think about things, even better if an experienced foiler are there he/she can tell you what to do differently, having watched you.

This is a much better and faster way to learn, than trying to stay out for a long time :naughty:
So sideshore or side on is perfect.

Learning things where muscle memory has to adapt to something NOT like it is used to at all, faster than what your head can think, and even counterintuitive maybe, takes a long time - but more importantly, can only work and be remembered (not by you but your muscles) if not tired and not too long sessions (better having more and shorter ones at first).
The very first time out when not riding, it is your brain that helps remembering, as you need to handle the hydrofoil when you are in the water - it is harder than it sounds/looks - but also tireing.
coordinating - how should the board point, how do you avoid getting your feet in the wings etc etc, how do you avoid getting pulled into it when starting - these are things your brain can learn, but riding, no way your brain can do this - only many sessions can make it happen.

It won't take many sessions till you can hold ground, and soon getting back downwind will be your major challenge and difficult :rollgrin:

When you have beebn out the first time or times, THEN it might be perfect to invest in some support and using the super flat spot - but you will be much wiser then, so happy foiling and lets hear how it goes :D

You are right, angling the constellation a bit might in theory be the most effective - but don't worry about it, doesn't mean a thing really, at least not for learning where you have to be well powered.

8) Peter

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Kykeon » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:55 pm

Peter, All, once again many thanks for your help!
(I named my HF board Peter!)

This post is a mix of my progress and a newbies observations regarding boarddragging.

At the end of the 3rd day, I can waterstart and surface ride with enough consistency to come back to launching location. I can also board drag at better angle than TT boarddragging.
That was my first target, being independent and able to get back to launching site.

I'm 35 yo, average fit, ok but nothing special with the TT (jumping small, toeside ride, carving turns)
and no experience with sufboard (I feel the the last would have helped)
Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:16 am
For "new" hydrofoilers it is difficult at first, so dont get discouraged if it does not work well at first - it takes some time to get used to "handle" this bloody beast with things sticking out everywhere :naughty:
+1
At the begining everything was super awkward and I felt super clumsy...
Walking with the board and the kite or getting it to position to boarddrag/waterstart was like writing a note with my left hand, while riding a bike...
and waterstarting was fail after fail...
After some time it gets better.

As a first attempt to board drag, I would recommend the mast down if the depth allows it. At the beginning everything is clumsy and mast down is the easiest way. The angles I was getting were at least as good as if I had a TT
After a while, I developed my own technique which I felt was pointing higher.
The board was upwind of me, I had my palm and my armpit at the downwind rail and my elbow at the upwind rail. My forearm was a bit behind the front strap and the mast had a 45deg roll pointing towards downwind (i.e. was swimming below me), not sure if I could do it if my board had flotation...

I had low expectations regarding my progress pace which served me well. In general I was feeling small improvements but at the same time that I was very far from my target of surface riding and holding ground upwind. Then all of a sudden, in one session, all small improvements in waterstarting, saving the ride, bodydragging etc tied together made me come out where I started. That was beyond expectation! I was so happy that if I were in a bar I would have bought a beer to everybody!

Watching videos and reading tips helped but also made me overdo some things. Eg front foot pressure, don't lean back much, ride flat etc are needed but there is also a too much of a good thing.

The timeline:

Day 0 : Took the board for a swim, it was too windy and wavy so I left it and took the TT

The dinghy/rescue guy has some HF experience and was keen to help my and to try my foil so I went on with this option at the flat offshore site

Day 1 : 1st attempt : I drifted 1 or 2km (1hr+) just trying unsuccessfully to get up with some breaks trying boarddraging.
When the guy came to collect me gave me the tip that I was not pointing downwind enough to get some speed. It would have been better if he came earlier but they forgot me ...
Day 1 : 2nd attempt : a bit shorted and a bit better but I was exhausted

Day 2 : 2 sessions: Still felt tired, I was getting small rides only to my left with many falls. At the end, I was collected after 1km drift. I felt that if my board had some volume it would have been easier to save it sometimes that I was slow and sinking (but I guess positioning for waterstarting would have been worse)

took 2 days break because of other obligations that made me rest well.

Day 3 : 1st attempt :At my second waterstart I did a very long left tack with surface riding. Then in order to come back I did bodydrag to the right and many waterstarts with small runs to the right. I was not consistent to the right, runs of 10m max
Day 3 : 2nd attempt : Everything clicked together and I was good enough to come back on my own. Still I'm better going left but right rides are (in general) working as well.
Next time I'll try to ride the foil above the water, so far I had the intention to restrict it to surface ride although I got some dolphining "moments of silence"
Wondering how does the difficulty of waterstarting and surface riding compares to foiling above the water.

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:09 pm

Good to hear Kykeon, you are on the right track, and assume you experienced the thing I mentioned that it is WAY more exhausting the first times, even when you dont really ride or do anything but struggle (AND learn, eventhough it does not feel that way :wink: )

You are riding on the surface now, and can keep ground, congratz, that is the important step and now it will go much faster in progress :thumb:

From now on you can try more "Dolphin" rides, and suddenly you will feel the silence for longer tacks and it is REALLY different - you will also get overpowered a lot more, be prepared for that, as surface riding requires "normal" kitesizes, whereas when up foiling, especially when new, you will get overpowered easily and could get away with a much smaller kite...
But also too difficult at your stage, with a smaller kite, as waterstarting and everything has to be timed spot on, so a bit bigger kite is okay.

You will also encounter days where NOTHING seems to work, be prepared for that - it can be the conditions just a tad different, but it is more likely YOU and your muscle memory, that simply isnt clicking yet.
It happens to all of us, even when superexperienced - so when you just KNOW this, no problem as no reason to be sad, it is just the way it is and enjoy what you CAN do on a given day :naughty:

8) PF

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby Kykeon » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:51 pm

Yes, it's quite exhausting until you get it working.
For me, 30-40 minutes were quite productive, after that the technique worsens as exhaustion kicks in.
After an hour I was quite fried.
If one can afford breaks (e.g. long beach and sideshore wind) he'd better make them...

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby TomW » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:04 pm

Peter gives excellent advice and helped me and others in learning stage.,
At this point you should be surface riding without losing ground. To start flying you have to gain speed, and transfer weight backwards very slightly keeping your lines with tension, speed will let you lift without porpoising. As soon as you lift, fly a few seconds, then you have to land it, shift forward and skim surface. Repeat. It's important to NOT seek stable flight at this stage. It should be up with control, down with control. Look ahead, stay crouched, try to relax.

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Re: Foil vs TT at Body/Board dragging!

Postby plummet » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:37 pm

dylan* wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:38 pm
This might be a stupid question but... if it's too shallow for the foil to be in the water, why not just stand up and walk it out?
For flat water small waves yes. Just walk.

But when you try to get out in bigger swell then you get to a point where you are not deep enough to start but you keep getting bashed back by the waves if you try to walk out any further. In that instance you need to be able to body drag to clear deeper water to water start.


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