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Moses 2018

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grigorib
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby grigorib » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:42 pm

Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:29 pm
590 vs 550: The difference in lift when get going and at low speed is quite big, in top speed not so much, the 550 accelerates a bit better/faster and is more agile, but the 590 still turns quick and tight no problem.
So at low speed which one has more lift, the 590 or 550?
Would 590 foil earlier than 550/548?
What about wing profile thickness, is there a difference between 590/550/548?

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Pedro Marcos » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:55 pm

Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:29 pm
Today I did ride 637/420 with 9m Hyperlink first, then switched to 5m Hyperlink.
Kind of sheltered bay, but still rather rough water in those winds. Not perfect testing conditions, but not bad either.
Then also switched to the 'old' 680 fuselage with the rest of the setup remaining the same, but due to the conditions described it is kind of hard to tell specific differences or get actual data that could be compared.
Just from feel I would rate the new one higher.
But will do this back to back test again as soon as I get the right wind directing for a perfect flat water spot around that is perfect for testing things like this. It has been a while and will be at least another week to go though...

Still just quick impressions and nothing like a test report/result:
637/420 feels fast, smooth, easy at any speed basically and during maneuvers.
On my plan for one of the next days is to test it directly against the previous race wings (600/380), which I like a lot and on purpose kept a set (or two) until I am sure I may not need (want) it anymore as I am only riding the new ones.
Which may very well be the case after first two days of riding it (with 19m R1 in lightest wind and 9m/5m Hyperlink in rather strong winds), but direct comparison is what I will do before taking any decisions/actions.

Afterwards I had another go on 590/330, 550/330 and 590/325.
It was relatively easy to get the 590 up to 50km/h and the top speed was 53+km/h.
More than I would have imagined before riding it the first time, but after the first very light wind session this was exactly what I expected for a proper powered session.
The great thing is that it stays very pitch stable at these speeds, I have made quite different experiences with other big wings at speed. And foot pressure remains nicely balanced.
With the 330 it is very balanced, with the 325 it became a bit more lively/nervous which can be preferred by some people.
590 vs 550: The difference in lift when get going and at low speed is quite big, in top speed not so much, the 550 accelerates a bit better/faster and is more agile, but the 590 still turns quick and tight no problem.
So same here, all fresh impressions which make me want to spend more time on the 590 to find out more about its performance characteristics and how in compares to other wings (Moses and other brands e.g. Levitaz Cruizer) in certain conditions.

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.de/hydrofoil/moses/moses-2018/


Frank Rosin wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:49 am
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:45 am
Hey Frank, did you test the 590 with the 325 stab? Nice looking board :)
Not yet, only with the 330 so far, but it is on my to-do-list for the next sessions to come!
The board is my main board: 120x42cm and approx. 2.1kg.

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com
Thanks for the review Frank, some questions :

You said you like alot the 600/380 , have you tried the 585 prototype they have made in 2017 ? I feel the 600 easy and friendly but not so fast.

Also you for sure have much more hours then me on it, how did you push the 590 to 50+ ? With the 550 I barely touch that speed and that's in perfect conditions, which setup did you use ? Board and line lenghts.

The 550 for me it's the most balanced wing from Moses, very agile , fast and fun ( not for racing ofc ) , so you think the 590 it's better? For me the 550 starts early enough .

Thanks

Frank Rosin
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:22 am

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:55 pm

Thanks for the review Frank, some questions :

You said you like alot the 600/380 , have you tried the 585 prototype they have made in 2017 ? I feel the 600 easy and friendly but not so fast.

Also you for sure have much more hours then me on it, how did you push the 590 to 50+ ? With the 550 I barely touch that speed and that's in perfect conditions, which setup did you use ? Board and line lenghts.

The 550 for me it's the most balanced wing from Moses, very agile , fast and fun ( not for racing ofc ) , so you think the 590 it's better? For me the 550 starts early enough .

Thanks

I think the 600 is fast, for me and my level, can not tell about serious racing speed, what do you base your impression on?
No, I did not try the prototype wing you mention.
As said, I will still do back to back testing with 600 and 637, my feeling is that the 637 wins as it may be easier to control and that may well lead to more speed too, but that is guessing at this point.

I felt it was quite easy to bring the 590 to speed.
On the first day I tried it I was just able to get going on 19m R1 with 18m lines and my top speed that day was 43km/h, could not really push due to seaweeds and as I did not want to go far from shore as I did not want to risk a longer swim in these marginal conditions and only 3°C air and 7°C water temperature.

Today I was on the 5m Ozone Hyperlink on 12m lines and the wind was probably close to 25kts, 101 mast, my 120x43cm 2.1kg custom board, the new 647 fuselage.
Kind of sheltered bay, the water surface was quite choppy, but overall there was not much movement in the water, which I feel can make a big difference.
It was quite easy to get to 50km/h again and again. Did not really feel like I had to push hard or do anything special. The wing just provided that speed. ;)
But I do not think that this is what the 590 is about mainly anyways.

As described I also used the 550/330 today, this was with the 'old fuselage and a very similar board (just a bit bigger at 130x43), also on a 101 mast. On this I had one lucky downwind run with a few gusts just at the right time which brought me up to 57km/h. That is the top speed I tracked with this wing set before already.
But back to what you are saying about the 550, being agile, fast and fun - I totally agree! I do not think the 590 is replacing the 550!
The 590 just adds something to the Moses range that quite a lot of people have been looking for in the past, mostly heavier riders, but also people of any weight that want to have a wing that lifts nicely and in control at low speeds, allows to work on maneuvers at lower speeds, solid lift at low winds...
So in your case, maybe you would like the 590 and would have it as an additional wing next to your 550 (that is how it will be for me I guess), or maybe you would still say that you do not need it for your riding style, riding conditions, or maybe maybe, you would say that you are not missing the 550... probbably not, but I can not tell you that.

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com

Frank Rosin
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:28 am

grigorib wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:42 pm
Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:29 pm
590 vs 550: The difference in lift when get going and at low speed is quite big, in top speed not so much, the 550 accelerates a bit better/faster and is more agile, but the 590 still turns quick and tight no problem.
So at low speed which one has more lift, the 590 or 550?
Would 590 foil earlier than 550/548?
What about wing profile thickness, is there a difference between 590/550/548?

1.) 590.
2.) If it is not a problem to get on speed and keep up that speed during maneuvers it does not matter much, which is mainly a questions of skills, but how I understand your question I would answer: yes, the 590 starts earlier than 548/550.
3.) I did not have a that close and comparing look yet, first things first: riding and a bit more riding.

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com/hydrofoil

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:57 am

Ok, now i understand such high speeds in those freeride wings. I rarely have those conditions, and over 15 knots here it gets quite choppy for speed and those big wings start wanting to "surf" at higher speed and it can get messy. So I base my slow or fast impressions normally being on a big kite in around 10-12 knots and I cannot do 50+ on freeride wings like that, I also don't own a 19 or 17 foil kite also that would allow me to have much shorter lines.

When I say the 600 it's not very fast it's because when I tried the 585 I imediatly was faster on it, but this is with 19m lines and 15m chrono v2.

Quite curious to try those 2 new wings 590 and 637.

About the fuselage, my guess it's that the lower drag can only be felt at speed, and maybe do much speed that "we" can't notice.

Frank Rosin
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:04 pm

Mostly I actually feel that it is easier for me to push speeds to 50+ in lighter winds like 12-15kts, mostly due to calmer water and more control.
Rough water makes it a lot harder to keep control and confidence, which often results in lower speeds.

Like today, I was riding the 637/420 on 5m Hyperlink in about 35kts and rough water, top speed was around 50km/h, but of course it wasn't the wings that were limiting the speed... :)
Was really good fun to do fast downwind carving in wind waves !

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com/hydrofoil

24819122_10155410993998051_1846769377_o.png

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby TomW » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:21 pm

Sounds to me like I should stick to my 550/330-325 setup. I'm progressing on it.
Be better to wait to see if I could use that pump wingset / fuselage for super low speed fun.

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby cwood » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:30 am

Frank Rosin wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:04 pm
Mostly I actually feel that it is easier for me to push speeds to 50+ in lighter winds like 12-15kts, mostly due to calmer water and more control.
Rough water makes it a lot harder to keep control and confidence, which often results in lower speeds.

Like today, I was riding the 637/420 on 5m Hyperlink in about 35kts and rough water, top speed was around 50km/h, but of course it wasn't the wings that were limiting the speed... :)
Was really good fun to do fast downwind carving in wind waves !

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com/hydrofoil


24819122_10155410993998051_1846769377_o.png
what can you say about the 637 vs 590?

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby pikovsg » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:14 am

Frank, thanks for all the testing, very helpful. Been riding Moses and new Lift for a few years now and really love the 548 for small chop, carving, freestyle and boosting. I do feel like there is a big difference b/n 550 and 548. 550 is a much more "straighter line shooter" whereas 548 is a slower (still fast) more carvy, playful wing that can give you some G's during turns. 550 needs more wind to start and stay on foil than 548 for sure. 548 has a speed limit where it's not as smooth anymore, around 27 miles. 550 can go significantly faster, IMO.

So. When you said the new 590 starts up earlier than 550/548 I wonder what you meant. Any chance you can expand? Do you feel the 590 is closer in nature to 550 or 548? Can you carve the 590 as hard as you can the 548? I'm on the Vorace mast, if it matters. Curious to your thoughts.

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby kitet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:37 am

I’m still a bit confused on what I should get...

Which wing is faster and more stable at high speeds, 590 or 550?
And what do you think is the most stable setup for someone still learning how to tack and do foil jibes? I’m confident riding fast, carving, and doing touch down jibes... still working on switching my feet without touching down. From what I’ve tried, I like the 550/330 combo best but never tried the 558, 600, etc

Thank you for the feedback.


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