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Moses 2018

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Frank Rosin
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am

The current Moses wings are all very nice, that is why it is not easy to decide for one only.
And to be honest I think any enthusiastic foiler is missing out if not switching between different wings from time to time. It can add a lot to your riding sensation, skills development,...
Even though I have ridden all Moses wings, I would have issues to decide for one set only. On the other hand as they are all nice I would be happy foiling it whichever one you would pick for me.
My message is, go try/get another set, I am quite sure you won't regret it.

As mentioned earlier, I am working on a Moses wings guide with a lot of information about each wing (set), which should be finished the next few weeks.
But possibly you may have the same difficulties to choose still, as maybe it can not be solved without own experiences in the end.

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com/hydrofoil

Frank Rosin
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:46 pm
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Gear: AXIS boards, Ozone kites, Moses hydrofoils, HB surfboards, Dynabar harness + a lot of other gear for fun and testing, e.g. Levitaz, Zeeko, ....
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:06 am

kitet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:37 am
I’m still a bit confused on what I should get...

Which wing is faster and more stable at high speeds, 590 or 550?
And what do you think is the most stable setup for someone still learning how to tack and do foil jibes? I’m confident riding fast, carving, and doing touch down jibes... still working on switching my feet without touching down. From what I’ve tried, I like the 550/330 combo best but never tried the 558, 600, etc

Thank you for the feedback.

Both wings are stable at high speeds, but 550 is faster and when there is more movement in the water it is affected a bit less, as it has less surface area, less lift.
Exactly that extra surface area and lift can help with maneuvers, as it keeps you flying stable at lower speeds.

While saying that I once had the sensation that race wings improved my tacks as I learned to ride faster into them and keep momentum all the way through, which is a must with very high aspect wings, but not as much with bigger wings that keep you up at slower speeds.

Again, there is no definite answer, a lot of factors come into play in the end.

What helps is riding and more riding. And trying different wings in different conditions. And did I say that a lot of riding helps?

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com/hydrofoil

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:33 pm

I personalty do not think that going even slower then you are able to go on the 550 will help in any maneuver really, because the horizontal speed adds stability as well (or at least in my mind it does). Being able to go slower should help beginners (because speed its very scary at the beginning) and maybe also wave riding. So probably the 590 is a much better wing to a beginner then the 550.

grigorib
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby grigorib » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:10 pm

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:33 pm
I personalty do not think that going even slower then you are able to go on the 550 will help in any maneuver really, because the horizontal speed adds stability as well (or at least in my mind it does). Being able to go slower should help beginners (because speed its very scary at the beginning) and maybe also wave riding. So probably the 590 is a much better wing to a beginner then the 550.
Oh yes it will. Look at Greg Drexler riding Lift 130. You can almost stop on that wing. Quite opposite of race where everything is fast-fast-fast. No, it's freeride when you have all the time in the world and have a choice to go extremely slow without touching water, be it a transition or a regular tack.
Speed is addictive but I also seen how it's impossible to let go an old, large area, slow wing. An old wing that vibrates, doesn't go fast but for lightwind it's so easy to take-off and go. And I know how frustrating it is not to be able to foil when you used to on a big wing. I know you can ride faster wing in lightwind too but a "large area / lower aspect" one makes it so much more convenient and easy.

Three words. Lower stall speed. Matters a ton and it's not a beginner thing, it's freeride thing.
Frank Rosin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am
...
As mentioned earlier, I am working on a Moses wings guide with a lot of information about each wing (set), which should be finished the next few weeks.
...
below....
Frank Rosin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:06 am
kitet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:37 am
I’m still a bit confused on what I should get...
Which wing is faster and more stable at high speeds, 590 or 550?
...
I like the 550/330 combo best but never tried the 558, 600, etc
...
Exactly that extra surface area and lift can help with maneuvers, as it keeps you flying stable at lower speeds.
It's very, very simple as I see it and I had feedback from Jim who confirmed my assumptions on 590 vs 548 vs 633

2017 situation:
548 - high lift, the slowest cruise wing (not slow enough if you ask me), earliest take-off
550 - slower cruise wing, more stable at speeds than 548, better for lighter riders
558 - medium-fast, very stable wing. A taste of "The need for speed"
600 - race wing. it says it all.

2018 situation:
590 - high lift, the thickest, the slowest wing, earliest take-off (and I hope so much Moses will introduce a 633-like wing fitting standard 647 kite fuselage in 2019 line)
548 - forget it. Whatever happens in 2017, stays in 2017
550 - forget it, unless there's strong reason to not pick a 590 nor 558
558 - medium-fast, very stable wing. A taste of "The need for speed"
637 - race wing. it says it all.

Unfortunately on the brochure Moses sorted wings by span and listed 590 between 558 and 637 which is very misleading.
Another thing is "too much choice is less choice" paradox. Well, once people demo them it should help a lot.
I'd expect Moses to start selling leftovers of 548/550 wings and 680 fuselage at discount price and focus on winning trio 590/558/637 and as always new development

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:10 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:10 pm
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:33 pm
I personalty do not think that going even slower then you are able to go on the 550 will help in any maneuver really, because the horizontal speed adds stability as well (or at least in my mind it does). Being able to go slower should help beginners (because speed its very scary at the beginning) and maybe also wave riding. So probably the 590 is a much better wing to a beginner then the 550.
Oh yes it will. Look at Greg Drexler riding Lift 130. You can almost stop on that wing. Quite opposite of race where everything is fast-fast-fast. No, it's freeride when you have all the time in the world and have a choice to go extremely slow without touching water, be it a transition or a regular tack.
Speed is addictive but I also seen how it's impossible to let go an old, large area, slow wing. An old wing that vibrates, doesn't go fast but for lightwind it's so easy to take-off and go. And I know how frustrating it is not to be able to foil when you used to on a big wing. I know you can ride faster wing in lightwind too but a "large area / lower aspect" one makes it so much more convenient and easy.

Three words. Lower stall speed. Matters a ton and it's not a beginner thing, it's freeride thing.
Frank Rosin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am
...
As mentioned earlier, I am working on a Moses wings guide with a lot of information about each wing (set), which should be finished the next few weeks.
...
below....
Frank Rosin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:06 am
kitet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:37 am
I’m still a bit confused on what I should get...
Which wing is faster and more stable at high speeds, 590 or 550?
...
I like the 550/330 combo best but never tried the 558, 600, etc
...
Exactly that extra surface area and lift can help with maneuvers, as it keeps you flying stable at lower speeds.
It's very, very simple as I see it and I had feedback from Jim who confirmed my assumptions on 590 vs 548 vs 633

2017 situation:
548 - high lift, the slowest cruise wing (not slow enough if you ask me), earliest take-off
550 - slower cruise wing, more stable at speeds than 548, better for lighter riders
558 - medium-fast, very stable wing. A taste of "The need for speed"
600 - race wing. it says it all.

2018 situation:
590 - high lift, the thickest, the slowest wing, earliest take-off (and I hope so much Moses will introduce a 633-like wing fitting standard 647 kite fuselage in 2019 line)
548 - forget it. Whatever happens in 2017, stays in 2017
550 - forget it, unless there's strong reason to not pick a 590 nor 558
558 - medium-fast, very stable wing. A taste of "The need for speed"
637 - race wing. it says it all.

Unfortunately on the brochure Moses sorted wings by span and listed 590 between 558 and 637 which is very misleading.
Another thing is "too much choice is less choice" paradox. Well, once people demo them it should help a lot.
I'd expect Moses to start selling leftovers of 548/550 wings and 680 fuselage at discount price and focus on winning trio 590/558/637 and as always new development
I dont think you are correct, ive all the 2017 moses wings, and there is no way i will "forget" the 550, because that it the best wing of the range in 2017 for the freerider/freestyler and will probably continue to be in 2018, i will have to test the 590 to be sure.

Maybe you can "forget" the 548 and use the 590 instead.

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pikovsg
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby pikovsg » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:17 pm

So you think the 590 is that much better than 548?? I looove the 548 wing for carving and freestyle.

Is the stall speed on 590 slower then 548? If so, then yes, forget 548.

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:29 pm

pikovsg wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:17 pm
So you think the 590 is that much better than 548?? I looove the 548 wing for carving and freestyle.

Is the stall speed on 590 slower then 548? If so, then yes, forget 548.
I doubt the 590 will be so agile when compared to the 548, maybe Frank can tell, but for sure will have slower stall speed.

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby TomW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:22 pm

Moses told me I can put the Onda wings/Fuselage onto a Fluente mast. But nothing on how it flys with a kite.

TomW
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby TomW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:25 pm

I have a 548 wing for sale. PM me, I'm in Europe.
I didn't find it much different than the 550 at low speed and too much lift at speed for my 78-80 kgs.

Frank Rosin
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Posts: 644
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Kiting since: 1998
Style: wave & hydrofoil
Gear: AXIS boards, Ozone kites, Moses hydrofoils, HB surfboards, Dynabar harness + a lot of other gear for fun and testing, e.g. Levitaz, Zeeko, ....
Brand Affiliation: www.famousfrank.com
Contact:

Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:49 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:10 pm
Frank Rosin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am
...
As mentioned earlier, I am working on a Moses wings guide with a lot of information about each wing (set), which should be finished the next few weeks.
...

below....

My wings guide will have a few more words than yours.
I also do not feel everything the same way as you are saying there.
Still want to do some more in depth and repeated testing before finalizing it.
It will include facts, but of course also be based on my personal impressions.

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:29 pm
pikovsg wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:17 pm
So you think the 590 is that much better than 548?? I looove the 548 wing for carving and freestyle.

Is the stall speed on 590 slower then 548? If so, then yes, forget 548.
I doubt the 590 will be so agile when compared to the 548, maybe Frank can tell, but for sure will have slower stall speed.
I would not say the 590 is better than the 548, it is different.
Both have different strong points compared to the other.


Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.de/hydrofoil/moses


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