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Moses 2018

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:03 am

You are right cwood, no such thing as "too much lift" no.

Writing now as a "general" thread:

But there is a but...

For initial learning some find they are too big and a tad more difficult than our "normal" beginner wing sizes which are also pretty big, because they dont ride so smooth and easy but pops up too fast so to speak.

But in this case this is not an issue as she CAN foil.

Even for experienced there will be a max size that is not interesting anymore when they become too slow turning and too slow riding - but I have no idea at which size this will typically happen for an average weight.

Regarding trim, it depends on the actual hydrofoil.

Whether I use my 1200 cm2 surf wing, or my fast 520 cm2 speed/jump wing, I stand on the same spot on my Ketos.
I got one wing of those in between where I have to stand a few centimeters further back with standard trim but thats it.

So more lift does not necessarily mean you have to stand further forward or move the mast, if the hydrofoil is trimmed neutral (wing position on fuselage and aoa).
On some foils this is the case though, that you have to move feet/mast.

Basically, more lift always means you can use a smaller kite and ride slower when you want, which is the goal besides making everything easier in transitions and maneuvers/tricks :naughty:

8) PF

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Laughingman
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Laughingman » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:52 pm

cwood wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:35 am
Laughingman wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:08 pm
What would you guys recommend for a 125lb rider, she’s already foiling well on the happy foil. Medium aspect liquid force wings but I’d like to get her something with more glide so she can learn to jibe with flying foot switches etc. I have a Impulse foil but it’s got too much lift for her weight.
No such thing as "too much lift" for a given weight. If you have the center of gravity correct it doesn't matter what you weigh....its about having the wing(s) flying stable elevation wise. If you put a lighter rider on your setup, then you have to move the mast back or move the footstraps forward to get the same balanced ride. It could have "too much lift" if you run out of adjustment.
Well I guess that’s what I’m saying, the mast is already all the way back with the straps all the way forward and I’m 180lbs... my back foot is always in front of the rear strap. So my wife at 125lbs would need a much smaller kite then me and I use a 6m
from 14knots, and a 8m down to 10knots... I don’t have a small enough kite to use above 20 knots....

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby TomW » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:49 pm

Went out second time today on 633 and pocket board. Wind was from good power to really light, almost to can't fly Hyperlink UL 9m kite. Was riding with a guy on a LF Impulse and 9m Storm Voyager.
Water state choppy but only 0,5 m.
We were both doing same speed. One run I was just behind him as he rode broad reach on small swells. We had exactly same speed.
He hasn't tried my foil, nor have tried his. He says his LF is a bit slow to turn. I feel the 633 is almost nervous in yaw and can turn on a dime.
I tried to go fast, but hit some seaweed and crashed. Accelerates pretty good, but no way near the 590 speed.
I did a down loop gybe during a gust and got going so fast I just did a huge breach as foil lift got out of control and I bailed out.
I put on my front foothook and it was so much easier for me. I have position right so front foot doesn't need to be all the way forward to it.
Pocket board is perfect with it. My nose rocker turned out good for starts and any carving touch downs. But suspect the banana rocker on Ketos and groove boards would be better.

In light wind it definitely allows foiling in less wind. Our other friend was on Alpine with normal wing and 9m Storm Voyager, he had to go in when we stayed out.

Now I have a better feel for it and will start practise on flying foot transitions next session.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:56 pm

Okay, we know the trim has to be offset some, changing from normal Moses wings to the Onda and reverse.

Laughingman, what about getting another board(s) instead?, where the tracks fit the 633 wing (AND also the smaller wings)

That would solve your problem, as when you stand correctly, these wings dont fly "up" with more speed/power.

Assume you dont wanna ride strapless, as if, you would not have this trim problem.

The beauty of these wings are, that even when too much kite, they are slower so they dont get out of control like smaller wings do, thus your wife should be able to ride with the 6 m2 quite far up in windstrength I would say :D

It is not too much lift, it is wrong trim which causes your issues :roll:

If you want straps, a new board could solve this - or modify your existing if room for moving strap inserts forward.

I once had a board long time ago with the very same problem regarding trim even with its standard wing - but as I went strapless 5 years ago and only ride strapped for jumping on rare occasions on newer boards where trim is spot on, I simply put a deckpad in front of the existing ones and problem solved now, strapless.

Would say though, that a 6 m2 for her weight is a really big kite quite fast so you could also get a 4 or 4.5 m2 or something like that, as you yourself dont have a kite for +20 knots so could be used here now.
For the average kiter her 6 m2 corresponds to more than an 8 m2, which on these wings got their sweetspot close to 10 knots.

Get the trim issue solved first, and then you can ride with your existing kites even if too big, and later you can find out if you want a smaller kite or not - would be my advice :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Pedro Marcos » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:38 am

"The beauty of these wings are, that even when too much kite, they are slower so they dont get out of control like smaller wings do"

Spot on, i use the onda to pratice in high wind conditions where the 637 gets dangerous to try new stuff.

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Rufusz » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:59 pm

@TomW: Does you pocket board have standard mount position? (~28cm from tail)

How much rocker does your board have?

I will make a pocket board at some point and wondering if I need rails or fixed mount will be OK. Now have 550/330 but planning to get other wings later.

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Laughingman
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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Laughingman » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:46 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:56 pm
Okay, we know the trim has to be offset some, changing from normal Moses wings to the Onda and reverse.

Laughingman, what about getting another board(s) instead?, where the tracks fit the 633 wing (AND also the smaller wings)

That would solve your problem, as when you stand correctly, these wings dont fly "up" with more speed/power.

Assume you dont wanna ride strapless, as if, you would not have this trim problem.

The beauty of these wings are, that even when too much kite, they are slower so they dont get out of control like smaller wings do, thus your wife should be able to ride with the 6 m2 quite far up in windstrength I would say :D

It is not too much lift, it is wrong trim which causes your issues :roll:

If you want straps, a new board could solve this - or modify your existing if room for moving strap inserts forward.

I once had a board long time ago with the very same problem regarding trim even with its standard wing - but as I went strapless 5 years ago and only ride strapped for jumping on rare occasions on newer boards where trim is spot on, I simply put a deckpad in front of the existing ones and problem solved now, strapless.

Would say though, that a 6 m2 for her weight is a really big kite quite fast so you could also get a 4 or 4.5 m2 or something like that, as you yourself dont have a kite for +20 knots so could be used here now.
For the average kiter her 6 m2 corresponds to more than an 8 m2, which on these wings got their sweetspot close to 10 knots.

Get the trim issue solved first, and then you can ride with your existing kites even if too big, and later you can find out if you want a smaller kite or not - would be my advice :thumb:

8) PF
Interesting take on this. Ultimately losing the straps is the plan, which is why we only use front straps. I guess we should pull off the bandaid and just go for it. I was resisting because it gives me a spot to aim for with my back foot while switching feet. Thanks for your suggestions

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby TomW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:11 pm

Rufusz wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:59 pm
@TomW: Does you pocket board have standard mount position? (~28cm from tail)

How much rocker does your board have?

I will make a pocket board at some point and wondering if I need rails or fixed mount will be OK. Now have 550/330 but planning to get other wings later.
My pocket board has rear foil plate screws 135mm from tail. Note I have 2016 fluente mast that is swept back 50mm.
I'm riding with rear foot on mast plate and front foot in normal width stance. It's about the same as my 590. My foot hooks are place wider than ride stance, so I use them only for water starts and can move feet forward and back which I do according to bearing. Further back wider stance upwind, further forward narrow stance downwind.

You should look at Ketos boards, groove skate, they have the banana rocker. They are gonna work better than mine which is more flat with kick nose rocker. I had limitations due to blank shape. Peter Frank has posted some photos of his Ketos boards.

Last year I was speculating that slower wing would be easier in rough conditions. back then I was still learning to fly and was when I was screaming around on the 550 wing doing spectacular crashes and face plants.
Only 2 sessions, first in over powered and rough water proves I was correct. It's way easier to control the speed, adjust to waves and control kite power. Sure, I'm way better now, but I'm sure it's easier overall.

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby oregonkiter » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:11 pm

< <It's way easier to control the speed, adjust to waves and control kite power. Sure, I'm way better now, but I'm sure it's easier overall.>>

Yep--me too. In fact, IK am more interested in riding the 590 wing in FLAT conditions, as speed is then the fun part.

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Re: Moses 2018

Postby Frank Rosin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:29 pm

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:38 am
"The beauty of these wings are, that even when too much kite, they are slower so they dont get out of control like smaller wings do"

Spot on, i use the onda to pratice in high wind conditions where the 637 gets dangerous to try new stuff.

I can not follow this idea... it is not like this for me.
Both, 633 and 637 can be ridden overpowered, but when really on the edge I prefer the 637 for sure.
I guess as so often, it is personal preference and experience !?

Anyways, great wings :)

Cheers,
Frank
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