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Small vs large foil board

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elsuizo
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Small vs large foil board

Postby elsuizo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:00 am

What board do you prefer guys? Small (<130cm) or larger foil boards? Pros and cons? Is a smaller board in the long-term more fun for free-riding and jumping?

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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby MMac22 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:25 am

Get a medium size one, seriously. It will serve you well : )

elsuizo
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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby elsuizo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:21 am

Thanks, any disadvantages of a smaller board, for instance 110cm? (also thinking that traveling might be easier with a small light board :) )

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:21 am

hrdude wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:25 am
Get a medium size one, seriously. It will serve you well : )

Very very true indeed :thumb:

Boardsize means EVERYTHING, and I mean it seriously - much more than kitesize eventhough you ride over the water most of the time....

Of course I prefer the small boards, as it means its windy and waves too, and more agile for turning and jumping.

But in the "golden" range 8-10 knots I believe most of us ride very often on a hydrofoil, small boards start soooo late, and also sinks so you will hit the bottom when starting, or never get out if dead onshore winds :(

Even around the 10-11 knots mark, a medium board has advantages, difficult to say precisely what, but it will give you less "you in the water, or non flying" time, and if lulls/gusts everything is better and easier on these.

When marginal wind, an even bigger board is the deal - so much difference that you wont believe it :thumb:

It is like from 6 knots up to 10-11 you will simply have a better time out there, having a boardsize that "matches" :naughty:
Not talking about racing/speed here, but pure fun :D

Even a smaller/faster wing can be ridden in the same wind as a bigger wing, when the board is sufficient to get you up and started so the apparent wind kicks in.
And bigger wings bigger boards is the ultimate for marginal wind of course, no comparison whatsoever.

From earlier posts I know some will say it doesnt really matter and they can start just as early - honestly I dont believe them, sorry...

As I have got different boardsizes to choose whenever I go out (VERY often out), I know precisely how much boardsize means, so dont go too small if you only want one board is my advice :wink:

8) PF

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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby revhed » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:11 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:21 am
I mean it seriously - much more than kite size even though you ride over the water most of the time....
8) PF
:o :nono:
Of course kite size is consideration NUMBER 1, period!
One would not choose a 4m2 in 8 knots as well as 12m2 in 25....Board size and F wing size do not even come close to this FIRST choice.
And because most do not have the luxury to even have the choice, OTHER than kite size!
And not far behind F wing configuration, surface area, profile, generally meaning like kite choice, less wind bigger F wing, and, or one with greater lift.
And lastly board size which as one improves matters less and less and unlike what P F states above even in ultralite winds a skilled pilot will be up and flying VERY soon having the kite loop timing in sync with the board downwind angle and pumping to get board off the water.
As much as I,we can appreciate PF posts sometimes like now simply can not, will not agree!
Consider this, bigger board, more surface area in, on H20 more friction...
On the other hand way to small maybe not enough volume to keep afloat if flying transitions missed...
I do think though that ONLY for ultralite conditions that board SHAPE, scoop, rocker, width to length ratio with the many times over looked volume will come into play mostly to get enough speed up for lift off and keep momentum if touching down.
Have a look at many super skilled riders their board choice is simply the platform for stance....with possibly many better options that do not matter as they over come this with technique.
To this day one of the best ridesr I ever had the pleasure to watch fly used this...years ago even...in lowind...
P4110001.JPG
P4110001.JPG (136.33 KiB) Viewed 706 times
It still at least to me seems so strange that so many choose to use a board with so little nose scoop, even more so for learning as in the stupid funny foil flat board!
Just to add my personal experience may latest D I Y 125 X 50 X 4 cm board is BETTER in ALL winds than my 150 X 50 X 5, where as my 115 X 46 X 2 is not enough, but as noted the best rider here will make it purrrrr.....
I would also add the weight can and will make a difference lighter being better and VERY rounded rail edges for the dreaded body contacts, wet suit health, line encounters, ect...
R H

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:59 am

You still can not ride as easy and start in the same lowend, with a small board, that is the whole essence of it all :rollgrin:

Problem in light and marginal wind is, that unless we are talking a light foilkite, you will reach a point where you dont gain much with bigger LEI kites if having a really small board, opposed to the same kite and a bigger board, regarding the ability to start.
And the combo of both is of course the best, but very expensive.

I see it turned around - as not many have the luxury of a bigger expensive kite, so many got a relatively normal 12 m2 LEI as their biggest size (remember, most ride other boards and not only hydrofoils), so having a bigger board is less expensive than a bigger light special kite.
And even better, a medium board will fit everything, you dont need expensive kites, it is agile, and still able to start in relatively marginal wind :D

This is why I would always recommend a medium board just like hrdude says, when having one board only.

But no, we can not agree on this one, not at all, but I had expected that from those using small boards only :naughty:

Have never seen anyone using a small board in marginal winds in our country at least - why would you do this with all the downsides, no gain, and higher cost because you need very special kites ?
Even narrow standard raceboards are huge, compared.

8) PF

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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby plummet » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:19 am

I'm on a custom pocket board. It's great on the foil. Responsive and compact. A little harder to start with. But nothing a couple of well placed loops cant handle.

For my shithouse jybing skill level it sucks as I only have around 2 seconds of surface riding before it stalls and sinks.

I wish for more surface area to better practice surface jybes. But it's the only board I have so I'll battle through. Once I nail foiling jybes it won't be a problem at all.

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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby hshim007 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:41 pm

If you're a begginer, start on a larger surface area board. As you progress you'll find yourself wanting a smaller and more nimble board (provided racing isn't your gig). The smallest size will be dictated by the type of board (thicker board or a thinner one with a floaty deck pad). Ultimately a smaller board will be more playful and more fun to do maneuvers on. Don't forget the type of foil underneath may play a big part too; if you want a smaller board you'll likely need a foil that is more geared towards freestyle/freeriding and not racing. Hope that helps

elsuizo wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:00 am
What board do you prefer guys? Small (<130cm) or larger foil boards? Pros and cons? Is a smaller board in the long-term more fun for free-riding and jumping?

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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby BWD » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:02 pm

Riding on the surface, the curve for drag:velocity is steep until you are planing.
Once on plane, you can add speed while drag increases slower.
For foiling with most foils I think you should start to feel lift from the wing soon after planing (if no before), for a quick, smooth transition to the foil.
A big or efficient wing will start to give you major lift from 6-7 knots.
So you want a board that will stop "plowing" and start semi-planing (passing its wake) around 6 knots, so it will "let go" and not stick to the water.
This is determined by aspect ratio and surface area.
Typically the overall length:width ratio ends up being 3:1. Dynamically, with the board accelerating and nose up, the immersed board area has a shape more around 3:2.
This works out to boards shaped roughly like revhed's, which is not unlike the shape of a shortened paipo, a ketos skim, or any pocket board, really. To keep some floatation for starts and a scoop to help in touch-downs, the shape is usually 3:1-4:1.
How big should the area be?
For transition to planing on surface, roughly 70-80cm^2/kg rider weight. Less for more proficient, or highly powered riders maybe.
The surface loading is the same as found in surfing, regular directional kiting, etc.
This surface loading facilitates easy planing with low power, at a board size small enough to allow good "shortboard" handling and light weight.
This is why converting a good, compact outline surfboard for foiling can work, even if not ideal.

With pocket boards, you can reduce length as much as your stance allows, but unless relying ONLY of the foil for initial lift and acceleration, you want to preserve some width, because most of the lift in surface riding is developed at the front edge of the wake. So it's good to have width for acceleration and efficiency at low power. Also somewhere to put your feet!

What about volume? 10-12L seems enough to float almost any foil so it won't sink, but gives challenges starting in light wind. Double that and the sinking when starting will be slower. If the board has a wide shape, it will also sink more slowly, even if volume is not great. To me volume seems even more dependent on taste and specific use than shape, and definitely more than surface area, which seems to follow some basic hydrodynamic principles.

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Re: Small vs large foil board

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:59 pm

Agree with your points BWD, except one, you will NOT have an efficient wing lift from 6-7 knots, not even close, for the "average" hydrofoil rider, IMO.

Here area, but as you point out even more important, is volume - it pays a MAJOR role in how low you can go and how easy everything gets :D

Dont underestimate size - try yourself (maybe not you, or only you BWD, but all readers) with different sizes on the same day, and you will know precisely what HUGE influence board size got, when under 10 knots and not big racekites, you will be amazed :thumb:

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