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Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:41 am
by Foil
OzBungy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:34 pm
If I understand correctly the problem you were trying to solve is that you cold not sand the carbon wings smooth enough. Why not spray paint them and sand the paint?
Tried that with Hammerite black spray paint, looked great, but came off very quickly as we all have to rest our boards on the sand either on thier edge with the vulnerable wingtip in the rough stuff, or the rig stood up facing the wind with the wing in the sand again, there is no way of keeping the wing off the abrasive sand and shells.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:16 pm
by cwood
Foil wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:41 am
OzBungy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:34 pm
If I understand correctly the problem you were trying to solve is that you cold not sand the carbon wings smooth enough. Why not spray paint them and sand the paint?
Tried that with Hammerite black spray paint, looked great, but came off very quickly as we all have to rest our boards on the sand either on thier edge with the vulnerable wingtip in the rough stuff, or the rig stood up facing the wind with the wing in the sand again, there is no way of keeping the wing off the abrasive sand and shells.
If you wear gloves put the gloves over the wing tips till you are ready to go

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:50 pm
by faklord
cwood wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:16 pm
Foil wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:41 am
OzBungy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:34 pm
If I understand correctly the problem you were trying to solve is that you cold not sand the carbon wings smooth enough. Why not spray paint them and sand the paint?
Tried that with Hammerite black spray paint, looked great, but came off very quickly as we all have to rest our boards on the sand either on thier edge with the vulnerable wingtip in the rough stuff, or the rig stood up facing the wind with the wing in the sand again, there is no way of keeping the wing off the abrasive sand and shells.
If you wear gloves put the gloves over the wing tips till you are ready to go
Or if you wear a helmet rest a wingtip in your upturned helmet till you are ready to go.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:02 pm
by TomW
I'm repairing with just epoxy and some filler like fumed silica or glass balloons. after filing to shape, sanding careful, Then Montana "Gold " spray can paint, then light sand with 400-800.

I've ridden wing dinged along the LE on several different damage occasions and didn't feel any difference. But repaired it later.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:48 pm
by Foil
Ok guys😶
Today I drove for 90 miles to get to a sea lagoon filled from the famous Menai straights with the fastest tidal flow in the uk,
The mission- to test a Moses front wing against a G10 Gong front wing as above posts.
Weather was "ice road truckers"
Snow, hailstones, hazard flashers, recovery trucks, police, sleet, rain with hard bits, flashing lights, stress, wife shouting eeek.
Anyways,after over 2 hours of hell we got there.
First up was the Moses 548 repaired wing, kite size 8 mtr, whohoo! It was talking to me, smooth, quick lift and normal service was resumed, hit a sandbar so hard I flew like superman.
Recovered, and walked for 50 yards to find the deep stuff,
Sailed back to to shore and fitted the gong wing.
After a few nervous moments I was up, however it was not as easy to get up as the Moses wing, no where as easy.
But once there the ride was so smooth, smooth as butter, and it felt fast, but so different, so different it made me nervous, how would it react to a turn ?
I was up at the height limit and it would not lower for the turn, slowed down and it remained high, slowed down to almost a stop and it stayed high and stable, yikes!
My brain could not understand what was happening,
Then dive dive, must have been going at 4 knots at full mast hight before it lost grip.
Tried and tried for many more runs but could not get my head round the difference, enjoyed the butter smooth fast runs, fast upwind runs, but the turns were from another planet. I tried so hard to lower the ride height before entering the turn, but even at near a zero speed I was to high to even think about looping the kite into a turn.
I ran into a sand bank at full speed twice, no shallow water white crests to warn me, or colour changes.just kerboom.
After a while the cold 3c conditions and a fast outgoing tide forced me to return to shore,
Verdict
It worked, not a scratch from the two fast sand bar encounters, so so different to use, and I will need to practice on the gong wing to understand the differences, the fast and ever so smooth straight line speed was breathtaking, but the turns were a nightmare, so much to learn, and the conditions were severe, icy cold, gusts from 12 knots to over 25 and more, fully sheeted out at times and holding my breath and praying for a lull,then bearing off downwind and working the kite like a madman looking for wind,
crazy winter conditions!
The best bit?
The hot flask of milky sweet coffee, handed to me after I came off the water, and the hot car that Pauline had kept on the boil whist I was out there.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:27 am
by TomW
My totally un-scientific guess is the angle of attack of the front wing is not right in relation to the rear wing. It sounds imbalanced.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:47 am
by jaros
My totally un-scientific guess is the angle of attack of the front wing is not right in relation to the rear wing. It sounds imbalanced.
I am not so sure of that. In my experience different foils may ride very differently, so some "getting used to time" is required... After that you sometimes can not say one is better than another, just different.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:26 pm
by StillLovinIt
"Foil", the good news is: You have a foil that is fast and still provides lots of lift at low speeds and it's also cheap and durable. We all wish we had a foil like that.

Unfortunately you'll have to fiddle with both angle adjustment and footstrap adjustment. To make your life easier I'd follow the instructions in this video: "Delta Hydrofoil Pro Tip: How to measure angle of attack on a hydrofoil" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE) and do the measurement with your Moses front wing and then with the Gong wing. There might be a difference that you cannot see with the naked eye. I've found that changing the angle but just one degree is quite noticeable (use some thin washer or layers of coke can aluminum under the stabilizer) Get the cheapest metal caliper (no need for anything digital). You could do it w/o a digital angle gauge and just use a long ruler taped to the caliper and do the sinus calculation yourself. On the other hand ca. 23 bucks for a Wixey is peanuts compared to the price of a foil and it's faster/more precise.
Keep in mind that this is all just a simple geometric measurement and doesn't account for the actual foil characteristics but it's the best you can do.

Good luck with your testing in cold winter conditions and make sure you have enough milky sweet coffee. We all hope that you can make this work because without pressure from end users there's no incentive for manufacturers to produce durable, cheap and efficient foils.

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:32 am
by Foil
stillLovingIt,
Thanks for your post, that is a great link there to check angle of attack,
Just bought the little Wixey digital angle gauge off EBay, new for £25 delivered,everything else I have.
Looks easy to do so will crack on with it in a few days when it's delivered.

Then post back the results, comparing the Moses standard to the Gong wing, the angle I can easily change when I find out the difference, it too hard to see any difference with the naked eye.

https://youtu.be/jTCyag5N_vE

Re: G10 wing replacement for fragile carbon

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:23 pm
by faklord
Foil wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:32 am
stillLovingIt,
Thanks for your post, that is a great link there to check angle of attack,
Just bought the little Wiixey digital angle gauge off EBay, new for £25 delivered,everything else I have.
Looks easy to do so will crack on with it in a few days when it's delivered.

Then post back the results, comparing the Moses standard to the Gong wing, the angle I can easily change when I find out the difference, it too hard to see any difference with the naked eye.

https://youtu.be/jTCyag5N_vE
I wonder if you could use a phone app to measure the angle. On an iPhone you can get apps with a resolution of 0.1 deg and the measurements (on an iPhone SE) seem to be pretty consistent. Just a thought?