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wings for using smallest kite possible

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windmaker
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby windmaker » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:08 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:31 am
I don't want to consider race wings.

Thanks
Unfortunately for you "race" wings are the solution. Race wings are not just for racing. A higher aspect wing will always be more efficient than a lower aspect wing of the same area and will allow you to achieve a much higher apparent wind and therefore need a smaller kite.

Big sup/surf foils are out of the question, their thickness and low aspect = probably double the drag of a "normal" high aspect wing. With sup wings If you do manage to achieve lift off after the initial yank of the kite it will take more power to maintain flight and keep going than with a faster more efficient design.

There are a few myths we need to get rid of in kitefoiling. High aspect wings are not harder to ride (I ride mine in waves) than low aspect. Just faster and more efficient, things beginners don't need, therefore the myth.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:06 pm

Disagree with this...

IMO the really big wings will make you start earlier with a smaller LEI kite, as said in my post, as the apparent wind does not have the same effect as on high aspect foil kites, so you lose more than you gain, using smaller/flatter race wings.

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby bigtone667 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:42 pm

My experience suggests a big fat low AR wing will get you riding on a super small kite.

Using the big Naish Thrust Surf wing as an example, you only need about 5 or 6 knots to get up on the wing and stay there.

Pair it with a board with a large flat surface area (big skim board, piece of plywood, old formula one race board) and you should get enough speed diving or looping the kite to get up the foil.

The downside is... you will not go fast ever! On flat water, my top speed is about 13 knots, on a wave I will get up to 15 knots.

The upside is they are magic for carving because the slow speed allows it.

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gmb13
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby gmb13 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:19 pm

windmaker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:08 pm
slowboat wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:31 am
I don't want to consider race wings.

Thanks
Unfortunately for you "race" wings are the solution. Race wings are not just for racing. A higher aspect wing will always be more efficient than a lower aspect wing of the same area and will allow you to achieve a much higher apparent wind and therefore need a smaller kite.

Big sup/surf foils are out of the question, their thickness and low aspect = probably double the drag of a "normal" high aspect wing. With sup wings If you do manage to achieve lift off after the initial yank of the kite it will take more power to maintain flight and keep going than with a faster more efficient design.

There are a few myths we need to get rid of in kitefoiling. High aspect wings are not harder to ride (I ride mine in waves) than low aspect. Just faster and more efficient, things beginners don't need, therefore the myth.
I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Everything you just said is wrong. Have you ever even tried a surf foil?

--
Gunnar
Last edited by gmb13 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gmb13
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby gmb13 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:31 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:31 am
I wanted opinions on the type of foil wings that would allow use of smallest kite for the given wind conditions. Would it be a low aspect, large beginner wing, or a very large surf foil, or a medium aspect free ride wing, or something else? It seems you want early takeoff but also good glide characteristics to keep speed up to generate apparent wind. Does weight of foil matter much in this regard? Specific wing recommendations appreciated. I don't want to consider race wings.

Thanks
If you want to use the smallest kite possible (like a 6m Tube in under 10 knots) then your only option is a large Surf Foil wing. All the guy recommending Race setups have probably never tried riding one the surf foils and don't have the experience.

The whole "the surf foils are too big and have too much drag" statement, shows no understanding of how foils work. If this was true then we would be surf foiling on razor shard race wings and not the super thick and huge sup wings we use now. Actually for surf foiling the wings are getting even bigger now.

For what you want to do, you need a foil that will lift up and engage at a very low speed. To do this it needs enough area to lift at the low speed. A surf foil will lift you out of the water and engage at 10km/h or around 5 knots. The best race foils need at least double that. Also you can pump a surf foil into flight with almost no kite pull. You cannot do that with a race foil.

There is a reason we only teach Kitefoiling using the Surf Foils now. Learners can use a small kite even in light winds and the foil is stable immediately after taking off in low speeds.

Check out this video. This is on our teaching setup with a 6m ReoV4. In the beginning you will not people are out on fairly big kites, by the end of the video everyone else if off the water and I am still going with the 6.


phpBB [video]

windmaker
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby windmaker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:42 am

gmb13 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:19 pm
windmaker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:08 pm
slowboat wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:31 am
I don't want to consider race wings.

Thanks
Unfortunately for you "race" wings are the solution. Race wings are not just for racing. A higher aspect wing will always be more efficient than a lower aspect wing of the same area and will allow you to achieve a much higher apparent wind and therefore need a smaller kite.

Big sup/surf foils are out of the question, their thickness and low aspect = probably double the drag of a "normal" high aspect wing. With sup wings If you do manage to achieve lift off after the initial yank of the kite it will take more power to maintain flight and keep going than with a faster more efficient design.

There are a few myths we need to get rid of in kitefoiling. High aspect wings are not harder to ride (I ride mine in waves) than low aspect. Just faster and more efficient, things beginners don't need, therefore the myth.
I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Everything you just said is wrong. Have you ever even tried a surf foil?


--
Gunnar
No but had a Carafino in 2005 (1200 + cm2) .

First of all giving names to foils such as surf, free ride, race is only good for complete newbies that don't understand foiling physics . The higher the aspect ratio for the same given area the more efficient the wing. Example, glider airplanes are designed to achieve the maximum lift with minimum drag and power, how many gliders do you know with short, big fat wings? Too many of you are confusing the speed it takes to get flying with the power it takes to get (and stay) in the air.

To be fair their aren't any very big high aspect wings that I know of at present (maybe for mechanical reasons) so making a direct comparison is difficult but physics don't lie. Sometimes marketing just turns peoples brain off...

windmaker
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby windmaker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:47 am

windmaker wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:42 am
gmb13 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:19 pm
windmaker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:08 pm


Unfortunately for you "race" wings are the solution. Race wings are not just for racing. A higher aspect wing will always be more efficient than a lower aspect wing of the same area and will allow you to achieve a much higher apparent wind and therefore need a smaller kite.

Big sup/surf foils are out of the question, their thickness and low aspect = probably double the drag of a "normal" high aspect wing. With sup wings If you do manage to achieve lift off after the initial yank of the kite it will take more power to maintain flight and keep going than with a faster more efficient design.

There are a few myths we need to get rid of in kitefoiling. High aspect wings are not harder to ride (I ride mine in waves) than low aspect. Just faster and more efficient, things beginners don't need, therefore the myth.
I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Everything you just said is wrong. Have you ever even tried a surf foil?


--
Gunnar
No but had a Carafino in 2005 (1200 + cm2) .

First of all giving names to foils such as surf, free ride, race is only good for complete newbies that don't understand foiling physics . The higher the aspect ratio for the same given area the more efficient the wing. Example, glider airplanes are designed to achieve the maximum lift with minimum drag and power, how many gliders do you know with short, big fat wings? Too many of you are confusing the speed it takes to get flying with the power it takes to get (and stay) in the air. The wing requiring the less energy always flies first.

To be fair their aren't any very big high aspect wings that I know of at present (maybe for mechanical reasons) so making a direct comparison is difficult but physics don't lie. Sometimes marketing just turns peoples brain off...

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:41 am

One note on this:

The reason gliders are so extremely high AR, is not really to achieve more lift, but to achieve higher glide ratio.

Higher AR means less drag especially when flying at high lift, but not really more overall lift - so when soaring in a thermal bubble you dont need the high AR as even medium AR wings has about the same lift, but when you have to cover a distance between thermals where you are losing height (no lift maybe down-lift) you want the absolute maximum glide angle and speed.
Also, the glider competitions are usually about covering as much distance as possible in the shortest amount of time - thus again, max glide ratio and speed (low drag) needed.

On a sidenote, the reason why gliders have ballast in the tanks, is because the heavier it is, the faster it can cover a given distance (especially important in head-wind), and the glide ratio when no wind is exactly the same whether it is light or heavy.
Many do not know this.
The sink rate though, increases a lot, the heavier it is.

Back to the topic - our hydrofoils got so low AR, that increased AR gives you a bit more overall lift, yes.
But not much difference, compared to what sheer size and camber will give you.

Glide ratio and low drag (speed) is much better on high AR wings though, which IMO is very important when you ride with big powerspike foil kites, where the apparent wind has much more effect than on other kites.

But for "normal" smaller kites sheer wing size and camber is almost the only determining factor to how early you can start IMO, as Gunnar says too.

Higher AR on huge wings will still go a tad earlier, but also turn lousy and stall more rapidly (eventhough it doesnt matter much I think when so big) :wink:

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gmb13
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby gmb13 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:49 am

windmaker wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:42 am
gmb13 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:19 pm
windmaker wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:08 pm


Unfortunately for you "race" wings are the solution. Race wings are not just for racing. A higher aspect wing will always be more efficient than a lower aspect wing of the same area and will allow you to achieve a much higher apparent wind and therefore need a smaller kite.

Big sup/surf foils are out of the question, their thickness and low aspect = probably double the drag of a "normal" high aspect wing. With sup wings If you do manage to achieve lift off after the initial yank of the kite it will take more power to maintain flight and keep going than with a faster more efficient design.

There are a few myths we need to get rid of in kitefoiling. High aspect wings are not harder to ride (I ride mine in waves) than low aspect. Just faster and more efficient, things beginners don't need, therefore the myth.
I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Everything you just said is wrong. Have you ever even tried a surf foil?


--
Gunnar
No but had a Carafino in 2005 (1200 + cm2) .

First of all giving names to foils such as surf, free ride, race is only good for complete newbies that don't understand foiling physics . The higher the aspect ratio for the same given area the more efficient the wing. Example, glider airplanes are designed to achieve the maximum lift with minimum drag and power, how many gliders do you know with short, big fat wings? Too many of you are confusing the speed it takes to get flying with the power it takes to get (and stay) in the air.

To be fair their aren't any very big high aspect wings that I know of at present (maybe for mechanical reasons) so making a direct comparison is difficult but physics don't lie. Sometimes marketing just turns peoples brain off...
The problem is, that you gave the OP the completely wrong advice. You pretty much told him that big Surf Foils where "out of the question" when they actually where exactly what he was asking for.

--
Gunnar

windmaker
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby windmaker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:29 am

My mistake! So in brief with what is available on the market these days, favour total surface area at the highest AR possible (probably a windfoil wing).


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