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wings for using smallest kite possible

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Horst Sergio
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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 am

slowboat wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
What do you think of this wing?
http://liquidforcekites.com/product/foi ... bon-wings/
Hi slowboat,

most has already been said. I am also a friend of riding a kite much smaller than everybody else, not just in high wind as on the picture, and not just as I am only 62 kg.
small-kites.jpg
I also think you need both, big area around or above 1000 cm² and high AR for performance. But as you are limited in wingspan to max. around 70 cm the shape you will always have some compromise in between surface and AR.

Best compromise I have seen till now is the 990 cm² x 64 cm Levitaz Cruizer. The LF in your link looks similar but all I have seen from LF have been done cheaper and with less love to details and therefore performance which is important. If you are using spike power of high AR foil kites, with those wings my experience is big boards are just for the last half knot as you don't need to accelerate on the deck, but can directly actively first stand up on the deck with the first kiteloop and then lift directly on the foil with the secound loop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn_2a1z ... be&t=3m19s

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby Mitaka » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:11 am

In order to foil with the smallest possible kite you need a high area low drag wing. More area/more lift comes with more drag and the optimum area/drag ratio depends highly on riders weight. Generally speaking the highest area wings (surf or SUP foil) have too much drag and they need more kite power - bigger kite. On the other hand the most efficient, low drag wings (race foil) have not enough area to lift you at low speed.

If we have a very heavy rider then a surf/SUP foil (1000-1200 sq. m.) may be the best possibility, available on the market since the lower area/lower drag wings simply can not provide enough lift and on the other hand if we have a very light rider (kid, woman) then a big race wing would work best because it will have enough lift combined with the lowest possible drag.

If we have an average weight foiler with good water start technique who wants to foil with smallest possible kite then a big freeride, light wind oriented wing with 800-900 sq. m. area would definitely work best.

Personally I have tried some different wings and for my weight and my riding preferences the KETOS Wave XL wing 790 sq.m. works best. Lower area wings can not provide enough lift for me at low speed. I have tried also the F-One surf/SUP foil 1200 sq.m. and absolutely without any question it was worse compared to the Wave XL in terms of kiting with smallest kite possible for my weight. The surf foils are very thick and slow which is very good when you are surfing but without the power of the wave they are very inefficient and too much kite power consuming.

Since KETOS has probably the most extensive line of foils on the market (2 race, 2 freeride, 2 wave, 2 SUP/surf coming soon + 2 windfoil) I will give some examples which is the most appropriate foil if you want to kite with the smallest possible kite.
- For most riders - Freeride 2 XL wingspan - 700, area - 880, would work with smallest kite possible because its excellent area to drag ratio.
- For lighter more wave/carving oriented rides - Wave XL wingspan - 575, area - 790 would be best for fun foiling with smallest kite.
- For super light riders - FreeRace wingspan - 640, area - 620 (with the lowest possible drag) or FreeRide 2 wingspan - 620, area - 700 (more area and drag but more fun) would provide foiling with smallest kite possible.
- For heavy weight riders - SUP/surf foil area 1000 or 1200 sq.m. would work best with small kites.

I hope this helps :D

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby slowboat » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:19 pm

Wow, I am really grateful for all the thoughtful responses.

In the question of using the smallest kite possible (regardless of wind or board size), I understand the benefits of low takeoff speed that a massive surf foil provides but I have to think efficiency/glide has to play some role in this. Therefore some compromise between total surface area and efficiency is the best solution?? (as some have stated).

For what it's worth, I weigh 70 kg, use LEI's that don't generate great power spike but good with apparent wind and a big board. (I don't want to change kites).

I have considered Ketos a lot but have trouble understanding their products or getting help in North America. (I emailed them in the past but did not get a response)

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby windmaker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:18 pm

Mitaka wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:11 am
In order to foil with the smallest possible kite you need a high area low drag wing. More area/more lift comes with more drag and the optimum area/drag ratio depends highly on riders weight. Generally speaking the highest area wings (surf or SUP foil) have too much drag and they need more kite power - bigger kite. On the other hand the most efficient, low drag wings (race foil) have not enough area to lift you at low speed.

If we have a very heavy rider then a surf/SUP foil (1000-1200 sq. m.) may be the best possibility, available on the market since the lower area/lower drag wings simply can not provide enough lift and on the other hand if we have a very light rider (kid, woman) then a big race wing would work best because it will have enough lift combined with the lowest possible drag.

If we have an average weight foiler with good water start technique who wants to foil with smallest possible kite then a big freeride, light wind oriented wing with 800-900 sq. m. area would definitely work best.

Personally I have tried some different wings and for my weight and my riding preferences the KETOS Wave XL wing 790 sq.m. works best. Lower area wings can not provide enough lift for me at low speed. I have tried also the F-One surf/SUP foil 1200 sq.m. and absolutely without any question it was worse compared to the Wave XL in terms of kiting with smallest kite possible for my weight. The surf foils are very thick and slow which is very good when you are surfing but without the power of the wave they are very inefficient and too much kite power consuming.

Since KETOS has probably the most extensive line of foils on the market (2 race, 2 freeride, 2 wave, 2 SUP/surf coming soon + 2 windfoil) I will give some examples which is the most appropriate foil if you want to kite with the smallest possible kite.
- For most riders - Freeride 2 XL wingspan - 700, area - 880, would work with smallest kite possible because its excellent area to drag ratio.
- For lighter more wave/carving oriented rides - Wave XL wingspan - 575, area - 790 would be best for fun foiling with smallest kite.
- For super light riders - FreeRace wingspan - 640, area - 620 (with the lowest possible drag) or FreeRide 2 wingspan - 620, area - 700 (more area and drag but more fun) would provide foiling with smallest kite possible.
- For heavy weight riders - SUP/surf foil area 1000 or 1200 sq.m. would work best with small kites.

I hope this helps :D
:thumb:

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:07 pm

If I might give my both practical, but also theoretical input on this (hope it does not bore too much, I will leave the calculations out at least...)

windmaker is actually correct, bigger wings will have more lift, but the same amount of more drag (both squared with the speed) - thus almost equal in terms of needed kite - they just go at two different speeds to give the needed wing lift to support the rider, but identical needed kite power.

BUT, three reasons why the bigger wings works better, for smaller kites:

1. There is always some unavoidable drag from the mast and fuselage and stabiliser, which will favor the bigger wing as it goes slower, so the "unwanted" drag (NOT from the main wing itself) will be lower, as the speed is lower.

2. You got a lower "sink rate" (because of lower wing loading, if you got a 4 times bigger wing you will "sink" 2 times slower) - meaning, when there is no kitepower, you can ride longer before you sink down, and also turn tighter thus keeping kiteline tension easier - this is IMO essential for the ability to ride with a small kite, as you are able to do transitions where you will have little or no kitepower when turning, but still stay foiling.

3. Maybe the most essential part is, GETTING STARTED ! As when the board is on the surface, and the mast fully submerged, there will be huge drag meaning, with a really small wing, you will never be able to get the very high speed needed for a small wing to give the needed lift to get up foiling.


Above is the reason why bigger wings works so much better, as Gunnar says, and also the reason why really good riders with super efficient kites can ride with smaller wings - as at some point the higher speed thus a lot more apparent wind and kitepower with faster/smaller wings, will outweigh the advantage of bigger wings..
In marginal winds though, it changes and the bigger wings are better with efficient kites too, as otherwise the wind window will get pinched too much, when riding fast, thus your efficient kite are not in reality efficient anymore.

So yes, IMO and experiences, there is a tradeoff, so bigger is not always better, and there will be a practical equilibrium at SOME size, which I can not "put a number on".

Above is also the reason why, when windy, we can ride with smaller wings a lot better with a lot smaller kites, because now the powerspike is extreme when kite is dived or looped - so getting out of the water and getting quite some speed is easy - thus you get up and ride faster quite easy, thus you get the same lift and can ride just as easy (almost) with the smaller wings, and a lot more fun usually :thumb:

Hope this makes sense, and explains the very different opinions on this topic :D

8) PF

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby TomW » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:27 pm

So Gunnar, if I'm already an "intermediate ", foiling around and managing most of my gybes on one side, toeside to heelside turns going better, going into switching feet in air learning phase.

I'm also interested in this approach to use small kite and gave fun.

I'm looking at the new Moses 590 front wing for my existing 2016 Fluente ( I'm riding 550-330 wings now). It looks a long way from a Takuma type wing. Probably a totally different animal.

Then there's the moses Onda surf/sup, which requires a new stabilizer, fuselage, wing. Assuming it goes onto a Fluente mast, it's 880 euros for that set up.

Or just get an entire other foil, like a Gong, LF or Takuma... More money and gear...trying to avoid.

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby bigtone667 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:19 pm

I suspect we will all end up with a few foils - a super light wind sub 10 knot rig and something for above ten knots.

But I think Naish and Slingshot are onto something using the same mast and fuselage.

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby bragnouff » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:05 am

I think there's something that got omitted in the original question is the targeted wind conditions. There's a big difference between riding a tiny kite in decent wind (say 15kts+) and riding a medium sized kite in light winds (sub 10kts). And all answers trying to cover both cases are both right and wrong.
In decent winds, there is lots of energy available, you just have to manage to tap into it. In light marginal winds, there's little energy available, and milking it is a completely different game, requiring different tools.
From my short (10 minutes) experience with kiting on a SUP foil, it's very appropriate to tiny kites in decent winds, not so sure in marginal winds. The reality of usability of surf foils in light winds is quite constrained by the fact that you need to keep that kite in the air at all times, which greatly limits what you can do in terms of carving and angles of ride. Pretty much the same as when waveriding in light winds with a surfboard, when it's too light that you'd need a 12m, your trajectories on the wave are constrained by the need to keep your kite in the air and retain some tension in the lines, and that may force some suboptimal waveriding. It can still be fun, but usually not so much, can even be frustrating at times.
Point is, when it's about 10kts, riding on the foil is still lots of fun, but essentially limited to straightlining at speed. Once it hits 12-15kts where the kite stays effortlessly in the air, then I can go much deeper in the trajectories, carve, follow waves and do all sorts of things. So in the first case, you might as well go for a race-ish kind of wing, that will excel at going straight and fast. No point in being on something super carvy that you can't carve since the wind doesn't allow that liberty. In decent winds, you go for whatever rocks your boat.

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby geron » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:56 am

"But not much difference, compared to what sheer size and camber will give you."

Hello Peter, can you explain why you think camber is so important?

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Re: wings for using smallest kite possible

Postby Tony » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:16 am

What about the Slingshot H4 Wing : http://www.slingshotsports.com/H4-Front-Foil-Wing
I'm just starting out getting some runs and got to ride this as well as the stock Slingshot setup. The H4 goes super early.


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