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America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

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edt
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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby edt » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:09 pm

it's all politics. It's all very complicated and I'm sure I don't understand it all, but before the last America's cup Emirate Team New Zealand made an agreement (possibly with Luna Rossa, maybe with the financial backers) regardless they made an agreement that the next cup would be a mono hull no matter what if they won. Next, they all said during the races that the way Oracle handled it was terrible, that the boats were too expensive and unsafe and that there were too many rules changes, arbitrary ones. That there should be a level playing field with an economical boat so the average yatcher could participate instead of conglomerates. Finally in order to make the entire thing a success they needed to have the boats race at a fast enough pace so they could get the desperately needed tv revenue. If they went back to the monohulls of the 50's nobody would watch. Too slow.

So what we are left with is a completely impossible design. The long fragile arms will need battery and electric engine assist, the boat will be unstable at all times (in the current design) it will be much slower than the catamarans. The entire reason behind the mono hull to start with is to please the traditionalists. Most yatchers are traditionalists. Very fussy about their boats, they despise the foils and monohulls and believe themselves to be some sort of captain of a clipper racing the tea routes of the 1890's. So the main backers of all of this hate the new boats, the new cats, that's where the "must return to monohulls" thing comes from.

It's a complete disaster of a design. The specs are all vaporware, it's not fulfilling any of it's conditions, cheap? no, traditional sailboat design? no, fast? can't be as fast as a catamaran ever.

This is what happens when politics infests a sport, but it's the America's Cup. Politics like this goes waaaay back. All the way back to the original cup when America first captured it, they added this little line to the race rules "All boats must sail under own power to the race site" and the Americans because they were hosting could always build their boats lighter and the challengers had to build their boats slower and more sturdy for crossing the Atlantic Ocean. You ever wonder how the USA could retain America's Cup for nearly 100 years, well that's why. then there all the challenges of the 70's the lawsuits of the 80's and now this.

that's what America's Cup is. A bitter sordid, political struggle where nobody plays fair and also the most amazing and wonderful sailing race in the world. Can't wait to see what happens next. I suspect lots and lots of lawyers everyone sues everyone if history is any guide.

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby bragnouff » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:56 am

Totally see your point but maybe one advantage of the monohulls is that they could sail in a wider range of conditions. In the previous AC, they had to cancel a race as soon as it was blowing over N knots (23?), essentially because those cats would topple over too easily. Hopefully that monohull design is going to push that upper limit. Having a boat that can be raced in a wider range of conditions can only be good for the sport, (and for the TV broadcasting). Also, if the racing happens in Auckland, it has to be expected to get a few gusts and shifts.

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby edt » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:20 am

once the ac75 is foiling how is it more stable than a cat? the reason a keeled ship won't pitchpole is 1 ton of lead shot a foiling monohull has all the same problems as a cat when they are foiling actually its worse more like a moth

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby Mossy 757 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:04 pm

BWD wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:45 pm
@mossy: I think it was the cyclors and the control system/duty assignments that nailed USA. Spithill was trying to do the job of 2-3 Kiwis, and every overcorrection on the foils and steering cost his grinders more sweat. The stress ate his confidence.
Do you think the NZ boat was really a lot better in areas besides these? I watched racing but didn't closely follow the postmortem analysis.
I 100% think the hydraulic power made available by the cycle grinders versus hand grinders won them the regatta. That being said, I think I read somewhere that the kiwis had done something that was legal but that gave them a big advantage in rigidity that the other boats did not have. Gonna go look for that article...
edt wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:09 pm
it's all politics. It's all very complicated and I'm sure I don't understand it all, but before the last America's cup Emirate Team New Zealand made an agreement (possibly with Luna Rossa, maybe with the financial backers) regardless they made an agreement that the next cup would be a mono hull no matter what if they won. Next, they all said during the races that the way Oracle handled it was terrible, that the boats were too expensive and unsafe and that there were too many rules changes, arbitrary ones. That there should be a level playing field with an economical boat so the average yatcher could participate instead of conglomerates. Finally in order to make the entire thing a success they needed to have the boats race at a fast enough pace so they could get the desperately needed tv revenue. If they went back to the monohulls of the 50's nobody would watch. Too slow.

So what we are left with is a completely impossible design. The long fragile arms will need battery and electric engine assist, the boat will be unstable at all times (in the current design) it will be much slower than the catamarans. The entire reason behind the mono hull to start with is to please the traditionalists. Most yatchers are traditionalists. Very fussy about their boats, they despise the foils and monohulls and believe themselves to be some sort of captain of a clipper racing the tea routes of the 1890's. So the main backers of all of this hate the new boats, the new cats, that's where the "must return to monohulls" thing comes from.

It's a complete disaster of a design. The specs are all vaporware, it's not fulfilling any of it's conditions, cheap? no, traditional sailboat design? no, fast? can't be as fast as a catamaran ever.

This is what happens when politics infests a sport, but it's the America's Cup. Politics like this goes waaaay back. All the way back to the original cup when America first captured it, they added this little line to the race rules "All boats must sail under own power to the race site" and the Americans because they were hosting could always build their boats lighter and the challengers had to build their boats slower and more sturdy for crossing the Atlantic Ocean. You ever wonder how the USA could retain America's Cup for nearly 100 years, well that's why. then there all the challenges of the 70's the lawsuits of the 80's and now this.

that's what America's Cup is. A bitter sordid, political struggle where nobody plays fair and also the most amazing and wonderful sailing race in the world. Can't wait to see what happens next. I suspect lots and lots of lawyers everyone sues everyone if history is any guide.
Totally, but that's why it's a special race. If you want to watch the best sailors win by virtue of skill, there are a million other formats that are WAAAAAAYYYYYY purer than the AC. I liken watching the AC to watching the presidential race versus following a local city council race; the former is infotainment for political news junkies, the later is an actual process that affects peoples' lives in a meaningful way.

But I'm also the kind of person that likes to argue politics and stuff, so I can see someone with less of a dramatic flair being super disgusted by the current state of affairs in the AC.

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby james » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:26 pm

This entire thread missed the point of the AC...

Bleating about a level playing field, making it fair and relateable. The holder of the cup gives not one single fuck about fair play and sportsmanship.

The way it’s written ensures the holder gets to screw over any challengers as hard as they wish before anyone even thinks about mounting a challenge.

Larrys big mistake was to try and appeal to the masses and make it as easy as possible for other teams.

He won when he could outspend and out design others

Leaving the door open a crack with the AC 50 is what cost him.

Oh and if Prada didn’t get in a piss and quit handing over their flight control system to TNZ on the provision that should they win ( the system was almost foolproof) then it had to be a monohull this time around.

Amusingly TNZ have given the italians the monohull they wanted but elected to make it fly (precisely what they didn’t want) another case of the holder screwing over the opposition.

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby edt » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:36 pm

Thanks for the details James. it's hard for me to keep track.

I love those foiling cats but 90% of sailboat owners use a mono hull and hate those foiling cats. if this abomination the foiling monohull dancing lizard thing ends up being the actual design nobody will be happy. which is perfect for America's cup.

still my favorite sailboat race. A spectacle

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby TomW » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:13 pm

Wheres the best place to hear/read about this drama?

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby BWD » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:10 pm

Sailinganarchy good for a laugh sometimes. And good info often.
There are some rare trolls there, be warned...

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby edt » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:11 pm

My fav is watching live on you tube. have a long wait between 3 to 5 years. if I remember when it comes up again, ill post links here. Or if I forget make a new post here in kite forum someone will post where it will go live.

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Re: America's Cup 2021, the hydrofoil AC75

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:40 am

james wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:26 pm
...another case of the holder screwing over the opposition.
Oh the irony :D Remember the 1988 challenge and Dennis Connor's response? "Friendly competition between nations", huh :lol:

I say, let them get around the course however they like, as fast as possible. How about one of those flying foil anchor things? :lol:


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