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carving to toe

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juandesooka
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Re: carving to toe

Postby juandesooka » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:47 pm

I agree with Plummet. It's not much different than turning a surfboard through a heelside - toeside turn. Follow the same beginner surfboard advice: you want to follow the kite through the turn, with nose of board always pointing at the kite. You need to have enough power that it pulls you through the turn, so you don't stall out half way. That means upwind or 90 degrees to wind is way easier. You shouldn't need a downloop as long as kite is well powered, seems to me this over complicates things while you're learning, can add that later.

Later on you can try to make these same turns going straight downwind while kite is underpowered. Can be quite challenging, as you have little or no pull from kite, so nothing to "lean" against. This makes for an interesting balance act while kite is drifting. I find it a relief once the kite engages again and pulls you out of the hole.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: carving to toe

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:33 pm

slowboat wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:47 pm

This is really helpful. Can you explain in more detail how the timing and technique is different: surface vs foil carve to toeside with downloop?

I can yes.

When you downloop riding on the surface, you go so slow and not much downwind, that you will follow the kite around just like on a surfboard.
Also, you can push the board to turn a bit with the edges and get the wrong feel that you can do this when going fast and foiling (and you can not).

When you are up foiling, you will accelerate like crazy when you downloop the kite, and your arc while doing this will not be a curve - so what happens is your kite turns towards the new direction, you continue downwind - and in a few seconds you will find yourself with slack lines, kite dropping in the water maybe out to the other side :(

Even if you manage to make a full carve foiling and get to the new tack, you will lose ALL pull and drop down, as the kite has searched to the new edge and you lose all power.

Above issues are almost not present when carving slow down on the surface - and lines are tight all the time ususally.

The other difference is the turning input - you have to yaw, ONLY, when foiling, to turn, and no pushing on the board nor edges.

Getting back to the kite downloop - when up foiling you have to either do a tight carve (very difficult in fact impossible when learning) and fly the kite around simultaneously in sync, and NOT follow the kite :thumb:
If you downloop when going downwind or deep downwind or in lighter wind, you have to make the carve before you downloop the kite - this way you keep the lines tight and get a very fast and safe turn with no risk of slack lines nor looping the kite down in the water like you otherwise WILL do often.
Just the opposite technique as a "follow the kite" downloop like on other boards.

Dont know if this confuses you or not, but you asked about my opinion :naughty:

Some prefer to downloop, others to turn it over regularly.

I like to downloop when going really deep downwind and carving back and fourth, and occasionally in marginal winds from upwind angles.
But otherwise I turn it over normally and by far prefer this for so many reasons.

Others can just look away now, as I have told it before, but the reason I fly "over" is:

You dont lose nearly as much "height" and can make a tighter turn, when you dont downloop.
If wind is low, you fly the kite lower and get a good full arc, if wind is high, you fly the kite higher and dont get pulled downwind in the turn, like a downloop would.
You can decide whether you want a lot of power for a long time during the carve, or only very little power and glide on the foil, with a downloop you are commited to a very limited (and high) power range.
You can decide anywhere during the turn, to turn the kite back and carve back instead, or you can turn fully and make a snappy cutback back again on a small wave, which you can not with a downloop.
If you mess up you timing and get slack lines, your kite will not fly down in the water like when making a downloop - you just lose power/speed but not the kite.

8) PF

flying grandpa
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Re: carving to toe

Postby flying grandpa » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:01 am

jeromeL wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:30 pm

Ride more up wind, keep kite low at 45 degrees.
Initiate kite turn fairly aggressively, and quickly follow by yawing board into and thru the turn.
Look where you are turning. Keep yawing thru the arc.
Seek to maintain like tension by coming around quickly.
phpBB [video]

[/quote]

The only way to make aggresive turn right is to move your bar far LEFT. You can see this right arm movement done unconsciously in above vid at 2:36 and 2:40. To do aggresive turn left, move bar far RIGHT (pressing down to keep line tension).

It is easier to keep line tension when the kite is pretty high. When the kite is low at turning, there is a moment when you ride directly into the kite, loosening the lines.

Line tension is your friend to keep balance in the turn, as well as on a tack.
Press bar away and down to your knees, if you are falling forward, push bar away and pull up to your nose, if you are falling backward.
Easy foiling.
Tadeusz
Last edited by flying grandpa on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: carving to toe

Postby flying grandpa » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 am

[quote=Peter_Frank post_id=998785 time=1512765186 user_id=912

Getting back to the kite downloop - when up foiling you have to either do a tight carve (very difficult in fact impossible when learning) and fly the kite around simultaneously in sync, and NOT follow the kite :thumb:

8) PF
[/quote]

High, Peter.
In fact tight turns are easy, if you know the trick.
To turn aggresively right move bar far away to LEFT side. Line tension will create turning moment.
Push bar down additionally in danger of slack lines.
To make downloop easier, start it from the highest position. This will prevent slack lines in most cases
Tadeusz
Last edited by flying grandpa on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: carving to toe

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:20 am

You are right about that Tadeusz, but for someone who has not learned turning the hydrofoil yet, it is NOT easy at all...

And the downside with downloops for experienced riders are still, that you get the powerspike at the wrong moment namely going out of the turn and the kite is lower - meaning you can not turn sharply back again if riding a wave, and in more wind/powered, you will not be able to carve tight, but will get pulled further downwind especially when coming out of the turn where you dont want speed or downwind angles at all, IMO.

8) PF

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Re: carving to toe

Postby slowboat » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:12 am

The information in the thread is really a gem for someone who is working on this. I would like to stay with the downloop, if I may. To try and summarize what is being said:

Riding left foot forward and gybing to toeside with downloop:

1. Head upwind with foil at mid-height and decent speed.
2. Bring kite high
3. Initiate carve by yawing to right. To do this tightly, aggressively move bar to right and yaw board around. The tighter the better.
4 Downloop kite
5. Keep line tension at all times.

Correct?

Keys to keeping line tension:

start with kite high and keep it powered.
carve tightly
lean on lines or against lines as needed if lose balance

any other pointers?

Thanks

neilhapgood
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Re: carving to toe

Postby neilhapgood » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:52 pm

sorry Peter, really interested in your post above but can you give a little more explanation as to what you mean by 'yaw only'?!

thanks!

Neil

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Re: carving to toe

Postby dylan* » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:46 pm

i think what he means by yaw only is just pointing the board in the correct direction without leaning into it like a carve on a surfboard/twintip? (sorry i didnt read all the posts but this is the technique i use a lot of the time)

the tricky part is keeping the arc of your turn wide enough that the foil keeps moving forward, if you turn in too tight of a circle there's a "pop" and you will immediately sink because the wing has lost lift. but of course if you make your arc too wide and you don't have enough power in the kite, you will lose all your apparent wind. just takes practice to find the right radius in relation to how much power you have and how much your kite is able to drift with you

flying grandpa
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Re: carving to toe

Postby flying grandpa » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:30 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:12 am
The information in the thread is really a gem for someone who is working on this. I would like to stay with the downloop, if I may. To try and summarize what is being said:

Riding left foot forward and gybing to toeside with downloop:

1. Head upwind with foil at mid-height and decent speed.
2. Bring kite high
3. Initiate carve by yawing to right. To do this tightly, aggressively move bar to right and yaw board around. The tighter the better.
4 Downloop kite
5. Keep line tension at all times.

Correct?

Keys to keeping line tension:

start with kite high and keep it powered.
carve tightly
lean on lines or against lines as needed if lose balance

any other pointers?

Thanks
You got it right, slowboat, almost.
My little mistake is in p. 3.

Initiate right turn by moving the bar far away LEFT. Your stright left hand must do wide circle move from front to left. Press down if necessery, to prevent slack lines.

I would add point:
4a. Follow kite power. Bear off, if to much.

I will change (for not native speekers)
"lean on lines or against lines as needed if lose balance" onto simpler advice:
Push bar away and to your knees, if you are falling forward.
Push bar away and pull up above head, if you are falling backward.

You can speed up lerning curve by simple beach exercise.
With the kite up, try to stay on one leg as long as possible.
Use bar movements:
Slide up or down,
Move right or left
Move up or down.

Have fun.
Tadeusz

PS. Sorry for the left/right mistake in my previous post. I'll correct it.
Last edited by flying grandpa on Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

flying grandpa
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Location: Poland

Re: carving to toe

Postby flying grandpa » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:20 am
You are right about that Tadeusz, but for someone who has not learned turning the hydrofoil yet, it is NOT easy at all...

And the downside with downloops for experienced riders are still, that you get the powerspike at the wrong moment namely going out of the turn and the kite is lower - meaning you can not turn sharply back again if riding a wave, and in more wind/powered, you will not be able to carve tight, but will get pulled further downwind especially when coming out of the turn where you dont want speed or downwind angles at all, IMO.

8) PF
High, Peter,
Most interesting, when powerspike from kite ads on to power of wave. :o :o :o
Turn initiation by arm movement is very usefull when doing clean (no spray) offthelips as well as in downturns. The more tension in your lines, the tighter turn you can execute.
Sorry for right/LEFT mistake. I made a correction already.


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