Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Countersteering

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders


joyrider1
Medium Poster
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:05 am
Kiting since: 2004
Gear: Directionals
Tubekites
Brand Affiliation: None

Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:24 pm

Countersteering effect self test
or
Why countersteering is so important to create roll to make a successful turn in KBHF

Task: Ride a bicycle just by pushing the handle bar with only your left and right index finger forward on the handle bar, don’t grab the handle bar with your whole hand (don’t cheat ;-)).
So get on your bike and let it roll in a decent speed straight ahead. You think a right turn is just done by turning the handlebar to the right from the very beginning? Please note that in this case you would have to push your left (!) index finger forward, OK?

IMPORTANT: Please be very careful! Don’t push too much/fast because you might experience something very unexpected. You might hurt/injure yourself severely…..

So if you have not cheated and returned from this self test you know what to do from now on on a HBHF, right?…. You can use the countersteering effect actively and achieve faster/better/more roll to do faster/better/more turns. Just think of initially directing the nose of the board to the opposite side that you want to turn to. Trust your body, it will not let you fall….. Just like it has hopefully not let you fall from the bike…..

nothing2seehere
Frequent Poster
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:25 pm
Kiting since: 2012
Gear: Kitesurfing and windsurfing
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Countersteering

Postby nothing2seehere » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:52 am

Just to clarify then, so your point is that introducing yaw in the opposite direction to the turn will help to initiate roll in the direction you wish to turn?

slowboat
Medium Poster
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Gear: North, Liquid Force
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Countersteering

Postby slowboat » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 am

nothing2seehere wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:52 am
Just to clarify then, so your point is that introducing yaw in the opposite direction to the turn will help to initiate roll in the direction you wish to turn?
yes that is the point he is making. In fact if the analogy between turning a bike and a KBHF is accurate (I am not sure), you must countersteer.

On a bicycle, one ALWAYS countersteers to initiate a turn (above a very minimal speed). Many casual cyclists may not be aware of this since we do it without thinking about it. Next time you ride your bike, just ride like you always do but pay close attention during a turn.....you will notice that you ALWAYS start a turn to the RIGHT by steering slightly to the LEFT. first. Then trying turning a bike without countersteering. It is practically impossible.

IF the analogy between turning a bike and turning a KBHF holds up, then it follows that turning a KBHF to the right, start with yaw to the left (may be very slight) then continue turn with roll and yaw to the right.

User avatar
Mitaka
Medium Poster
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:00 pm
Style: wave riding
Gear: Cabrinha Drifter, BRM Cloud C5, F-One MITU, KETOS Wave & Wave XL foil + Pocket 107 & 118 foilboard

Re: Countersteering

Postby Mitaka » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:29 am

slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 am
In fact if the analogy between turning a bike and a KBHF is accurate (I am not sure)...
The analogy is not accurate and not applicable at all because leaning to the inside of the turn causes the bike to change its shape (the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn) which is not the case with the hydrofoil which is a relatively rigid structure which remains relatively fixed after foilboard roll.

In fact counter steering helps somehow to initiate the turn because you tighten the kite lines and that is helpful both for steering the kite in the new direction and using it as balance support. :D

User avatar
Mitaka
Medium Poster
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:00 pm
Style: wave riding
Gear: Cabrinha Drifter, BRM Cloud C5, F-One MITU, KETOS Wave & Wave XL foil + Pocket 107 & 118 foilboard

Re: Countersteering

Postby Mitaka » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am

slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 am
In fact if the analogy between turning a bike and a KBHF is accurate (I am not sure)...
The analogy is not accurate and not applicable at all because leaning to the inside of the turn causes the bike to change its shape (the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn) which is not the case with the hydrofoil - a relatively rigid structure which remains relatively fixed after foilboard roll.

In fact counter steering helps somehow to initiate the turn because you tighten the kite lines and that is helpful both for steering the kite in the new direction (effectively yawing the hydrofoil) and using it as balance support. :D

slowboat
Medium Poster
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Gear: North, Liquid Force
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Countersteering

Postby slowboat » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:02 pm

Mitaka wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am
slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 am
In fact if the analogy between turning a bike and a KBHF is accurate (I am not sure)...


...(the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn) ...

To be clear, I am not saying the analogy is applicable, I am just stating the analogy to see what others think. The front wheel actually turns in the OPPOSITE direction which initiates the roll of the bike toward the direction the bike ultimately turns in. So the bike starts moving in the new direction with ROLL first. This is really the only way to turn a bike. Is that true with a KBHF? (leave the kite out of it)

evan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:48 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Brouwersdam
Style: Hydrofoil - Big Air
Gear: Levitaz Bionic
Peter Lynn Aero
Brand Affiliation: Infexion
Peter Lynn
Contact:

Re: Countersteering

Postby evan » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:06 pm

Yes, you need your COG at the inside of the turn and just like a bike you need to offset the balance by countersteering so that you "fall" into the turn. But just like a bike this is someting that comes naturally, not something you are actively thinking about.

joyrider1
Medium Poster
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:05 am
Kiting since: 2004
Gear: Directionals
Tubekites
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:49 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:52 am
Just to clarify then, so your point is that introducing yaw in the opposite direction to the turn will help to initiate roll in the direction you wish to turn?
Let`s pretend a left turn: Your upper body yaws to the left (supported by the look to the left what so many mentioned, yes). Because this is not a single motion of the upper body but a twist of the whole body, your lower body (and attached mast/strut) yaws to the right. This all for a very tiny split second. The perfect analogy for biking is described in revhed`s link: "Because the forces in the contact patch are at ground level, this pulls the wheels "out from under" the bike to the right and causes it to lean to the left." In KBHF the contact patch is the wings and mast/strut in the water, we all know how rigid the foil follows the direction.

It is all decribed now with the posts and links, you just have to combine the information....

User avatar
Mitaka
Medium Poster
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:00 pm
Style: wave riding
Gear: Cabrinha Drifter, BRM Cloud C5, F-One MITU, KETOS Wave & Wave XL foil + Pocket 107 & 118 foilboard

Re: Countersteering

Postby Mitaka » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:56 pm

slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:02 pm
Mitaka wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am
slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 am
In fact if the analogy between turning a bike and a KBHF is accurate (I am not sure)...


...(the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn) ...

To be clear, I am not saying the analogy is applicable, I am just stating the analogy to see what others think. The front wheel actually turns in the OPPOSITE direction which initiates the roll of the bike toward the direction the bike ultimately turns in. So the bike starts moving in the new direction with ROLL first. This is really the only way to turn a bike. Is that true with a KBHF? (leave the kite out of it)
My answer was based on the countersteering definition posted by revhed in another thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
In order to turn left you steer the bike to the right (OPPOSITE direction), your body inclines to the left and then "the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn" to the left. Nothing to do with Hydrofoiling IMHO.

User avatar
Mitaka
Medium Poster
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:00 pm
Style: wave riding
Gear: Cabrinha Drifter, BRM Cloud C5, F-One MITU, KETOS Wave & Wave XL foil + Pocket 107 & 118 foilboard

Re: Countersteering

Postby Mitaka » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:58 pm

slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:02 pm
Mitaka wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am


...(the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn) ...

To be clear, I am not saying the analogy is applicable, I am just stating the analogy to see what others think. The front wheel actually turns in the OPPOSITE direction which initiates the roll of the bike toward the direction the bike ultimately turns in. So the bike starts moving in the new direction with ROLL first. This is really the only way to turn a bike. Is that true with a KBHF? (leave the kite out of it)
My answer was based on the countersteering definition posted by revhed in another thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
In order to turn left you steer the bike to the right (OPPOSITE direction), your body inclines to the left and then "the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn" to the left. Nothing to do with Hydrofoiling IMHO. I already posted in the other thread:
viewtopic.php?t=2398338&p=999391


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DAnderson, jespin4845 and 9 guests

cron