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Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

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norcom
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Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby norcom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Picked up a 41cm Moses mast for some shallow areas around here to complement the few wingsets I have for my Slingshot Ghost Whisper. Below is what the mast to fuselage connection point looks like, brand new out of the box. Contacted the shop and they were told twice by Moses that this is fine and just cosmetic. The shop offered a refund as they didn't have any more in stock. I figured I'll take my chances and just epoxy the voids with some resin.

I'm quite surprised they would consider this as "Absolute no problem". It's obvious they grind the shape of the mast attachment point for a precise fit but my Slingshot Ghost whisper looks nothing close to that. They could have at least covered up the voids at the factory even if this point doesn't take extreme forces in the downward direction.

I saw the thread where Moses replaced a broken mast but they didn't see this as a problem. I'm not too worried but I'll be moving to a different brand when I'm ready to upgrade. Made in Italy? No thanks!
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tmcfarla
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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby tmcfarla » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:50 pm

Honestly, I think they are right about what is shown being cosmetic, I don’t think the bottom provides any strength to the connection. If the sides looked like this as well then I would be concerned.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby gmb13 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:22 pm

You have nothing to worry about. It is just cosmetic. If this worries you, you might want to stick with Aluminium foils as carbon foils will always have cosmetic issues on the connection parts like that. They just don't bother fillering those.

BTW. The base is not ground, it is moulded on. Hence the air bubbles leaving pinholes. Enjoy your foil.

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Horst Sergio
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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 am

gmb13 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:22 pm
You have nothing to worry about. It is just cosmetic. If this worries you, you might want to stick with Aluminium foils as carbon foils will always have cosmetic issues on the connection parts like that. They just don't bother fillering those.

BTW. The base is not ground, it is moulded on. Hence the air bubbles leaving pinholes. Enjoy your foil.
I have nothing to do with Moses but can 100% sign what Gunnar said. You will find this in all brands epoxy foils and better not try to improve here something yourself, as the risk to worsen is higher IMHO.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby cwood » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:51 am

norcom wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:32 pm
Picked up a 41cm Moses mast for some shallow areas around here to complement the few wingsets I have for my Slingshot Ghost Whisper. Below is what the mast to fuselage connection point looks like, brand new out of the box. Contacted the shop and they were told twice by Moses that this is fine and just cosmetic. The shop offered a refund as they didn't have any more in stock. I figured I'll take my chances and just epoxy the voids with some resin.

I'm quite surprised they would consider this as "Absolute no problem". It's obvious they grind the shape of the mast attachment point for a precise fit but my Slingshot Ghost whisper looks nothing close to that. They could have at least covered up the voids at the factory even if this point doesn't take extreme forces in the downward direction.

I saw the thread where Moses replaced a broken mast but they didn't see this as a problem. I'm not too worried but I'll be moving to a different brand when I'm ready to upgrade. Made in Italy? No thanks!
You must be kidding? 0 issue with that. It is captive inside the fuselage aluminum. I'm the mast break guy....and I love my Moses gear. Have not had a single other issue. Guys here have broken every Alpine wing sent to them...and the Alpine is the finest LOOKING stuff I have ever seen. Absolutely flawless but that does not indicate strength.

norcom
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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby norcom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:08 am

gmb13 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:22 pm
You have nothing to worry about. It is just cosmetic. If this worries you, you might want to stick with Aluminium foils as carbon foils will always have cosmetic issues on the connection parts like that. They just don't bother fillering those.

BTW. The base is not ground, it is moulded on. Hence the air bubbles leaving pinholes. Enjoy your foil.

--
Gunnar
I understand the base is moulded but the connection point is sanded afterwards. It's not glossy as the rest of the mast. You can see grind marks all over the part that inserts as well as the steel inserts.

My Ghost Whister has "cosmetic issues" but nothing this bad.
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norcom
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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby norcom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 am

If this was a Chinese foil, I'm guessing the replies would be laughter and this is what you get with buying directly from China. I have a few carbon mountain bike frames and carbon wheelsets as well as many carbon bike components. Some are direct from China others are high end brand names. If I ever saw a layup similar to this, I wouldn't use it. Now the defect could be in any of my bike parts but at least it was covered up.

My point is I feel this is a pretty low quality control for product representation. One might never see this if they don't take their gear apart after every session and wash it. But when spending money on a brand name, I would expect for them to at least cover it up. I wonder what Slingshot would say if this was on one of their new Ghost Whisper setups that's going for $2k plus?

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby OzBungy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:27 am

Cosmetic. I have two carbon masts, so 4 ends in total. Some are glossy perfect. Some have voids and stuff. If you want to feel better about it, fill it with some epoxy. Sand. Go ride.

Just my two cents, there is a fairly constant low level maintenance workload for owning carbon stuff. I fill chips and cracks, paint bits, and sand from time to time. It's sort of fun. It makes stuff look and work nice, but it's not really necessary. Everything would work pretty well no matter how it looked.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am

norcom wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 am
... I have a few carbon mountain bike frames and carbon wheelsets as well as many carbon bike components. Some are direct from China others are high end brand names. If I ever saw a layup similar to this, I wouldn't use it ...

... I wonder what Slingshot would say if this was on one of their new Ghost Whisper setups that's going for $2k plus?
If you compare carbon foils with carbon bike components, you are comparing a maximum 10.000 people 3 years old market with a 10.000.000 people 30 years old market ... doesn't make any sense to me, as different standards.

And I always would prefer a carbon part with less epoxy and some pin holes in front of a over epoxied part with no pin holes which looks better, but is weaker as the epoxy just creates weight and weakness if there is more than absolutely necessary in the parts.

And your Slingshot was made by the same company called Moses as your new strut, isn't it. Both are perfect, don't worry, just go out and have fun.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby NorCalNomad » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 am

That's a lot of voids, especially around that one insert. No idea if that's a vacuum molded part or a wet layup. But that again seems like a lot of voids for a part that carries a lot of load. I've done wet layup stuff that wasn't degassed and it has come out better than that in my kitchen.
Horst Sergio wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am
If you compare carbon foils with carbon bike components, you are comparing a maximum 10.000 people 3 years old market with a 10.000.000 people 30 years old market ... doesn't make any sense to me, as different standards.
They are made in the same way, hell probably at least one of the factories do both.


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