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Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

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Horst Sergio
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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:40 am

NorCalNomad wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 am
... I've done wet layup stuff that wasn't degassed and it has come out better than that in my kitchen.
Yes me too, not in the kitchen but in the basement :wink: , and the only board is still in use after 20 years is a thin flexible carbon skate longboard. It was this one most dry most pin holes of all. All the other ones great looking, no pin holes but just to wet and full of epoxy... :naughty:
Horst Sergio wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 am
If you compare carbon foils with carbon bike components, you are comparing a maximum 10.000 people 3 years old market with a 10.000.000 people 30 years old market ... doesn't make any sense to me, as different standards.
NorCalNomad wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 am
They are made in the same way, hell probably at least one of the factories do both.
Don't know but would be pretty sure that Moses producing also RC helicopter blades, still produces in their own factory in Italy and think also those Slingshot parts. Nothing to do with bikes. Apart from yes same materials and similar production process. But where in the much bigger bicycle production industry for sure it is important to also have a perfect finish, its still not like that in foil production as there is just no need and till now enough to just produce good foils.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby norcom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:56 am

Horst Sergio wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:40 am
Don't know but would be pretty sure that Moses producing also RC helicopter blades, still produces in their own factory in Italy and think also those Slingshot parts. Nothing to do with bikes. Apart from yes same materials and similar production process. But where in the much bigger bicycle production industry for sure it is important to also have a perfect finish, its still not like that in foil production as there is just no need and till now enough to just produce good foils.

I disagree that there's no need to produce a perfect finish in the foil industry. I think any industry should try to do the best they can instead of 'good enough'. If this was a $2k new Slingshot foil and they told me "that's fine" I would have sent it back. I'm not paying some guy in his kitchen to build me a foil, I'm paying a reputable company with years in the industry a lot of money (at least to me). Considering this wasn't enough of my money to give too much of a crap other than being a bit disappointed, I'm just letting everyone know what this company considers acceptable. If people are OK with this, than may Moses produce whatever and get rich.

I have the Ghost Whisper and I love this foil. I have two extra sets of wings the 548 and 550 as well as some rears, not sure. I haven't even tried the 550 combo yet. I've invested into this companys products and I expected more. They just released their SUP surf foils and I was stoked but now I'm skeptical of what to expect. That's it.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby cwood » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:16 pm

norcom wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:56 am
Horst Sergio wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:40 am
Don't know but would be pretty sure that Moses producing also RC helicopter blades, still produces in their own factory in Italy and think also those Slingshot parts. Nothing to do with bikes. Apart from yes same materials and similar production process. But where in the much bigger bicycle production industry for sure it is important to also have a perfect finish, its still not like that in foil production as there is just no need and till now enough to just produce good foils.

I disagree that there's no need to produce a perfect finish in the foil industry. I think any industry should try to do the best they can instead of 'good enough'. If this was a $2k new Slingshot foil and they told me "that's fine" I would have sent it back. I'm not paying some guy in his kitchen to build me a foil, I'm paying a reputable company with years in the industry a lot of money (at least to me). Considering this wasn't enough of my money to give too much of a crap other than being a bit disappointed, I'm just letting everyone know what this company considers acceptable. If people are OK with this, than may Moses produce whatever and get rich.

I have the Ghost Whisper and I love this foil. I have two extra sets of wings the 548 and 550 as well as some rears, not sure. I haven't even tried the 550 combo yet. I've invested into this companys products and I expected more. They just released their SUP surf foils and I was stoked but now I'm skeptical of what to expect. That's it.
I guess my opinion is that you are worried about something that has zero impact on any use or performance. It does not make contact with the water flow, does not impact strength or function....therefor a waste of time and cost to remedy as part of production. I'll say it again, perfect and expensive cosmetics like Alpine make no difference other than perhaps the initial impression. Wildly expensive due to the attention to every detail....even where it makes no difference.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby norcom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:33 pm

cwood wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:16 pm
I guess my opinion is that you are worried about something that has zero impact on any use or performance. It does not make contact with the water flow, does not impact strength or function....therefor a waste of time and cost to remedy as part of production. I'll say it again, perfect and expensive cosmetics like Alpine make no difference other than perhaps the initial impression. Wildly expensive due to the attention to every detail....even where it makes no difference.
Would you mind posting what your connection point looks like on the new mast you received?

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby BWD » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:05 pm

They are selling composite parts, probably on a 5% net at the end of the day.
They are not selling the carbon girlfriend experience.
Moses maybe makes an extra 1% on the SS branding, or maybe just extra volume.
Slingshot does essentially give you a bunnyranch special for the same shit for an extra 20% price hike.
That must be one hell of a decal on the mast, eh?
Still not a carbon fiber girlfriend.
As alluded above, for a real shiny sparkling carbon fiber girlfriend experience, you need to be in a market with millions of punters, then it's worth it to develop perfected tooling and pay exttra workers to do things like skim, sand and polish parts that are never seen....

But the reality is that quality is defined by having the running hydrodynamic surfaces correct and using the right layup and resin. You are a lot better off with a very tough, well made prepreg with pinholes than with something that looks like a flawless diamond made of softer resin, for example.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:17 pm

Agree - it does not matter at all, and no reason to worry :thumb:

BWD put it right with this comment, that says it all, actually a lot more than most are aware about:

You are a lot better off with a very tough, well made prepreg with pinholes than with something that looks like a flawless diamond made of softer resin, for example.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby Foil » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:28 pm

I am guessing that Moses (SAS) also make the Levitaz parts? The covers are the same and the logo paint colours the same.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby james » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:38 pm

OP

Somewhere between it arriving and just after you unpacked it you could have rejected it?

Everyone has said it fine except you now so either they are all right and just get on with it or ymtgey are all wrong and you should return it ( might be tricky now you have gonevthe forum internet justice route)

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby norcom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:04 pm

james wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:38 pm
OP

Somewhere between it arriving and just after you unpacked it you could have rejected it?

Everyone has said it fine except you now so either they are all right and just get on with it or ymtgey are all wrong and you should return it ( might be tricky now you have gonevthe forum internet justice route)
As I mentioned in my original post the shop offered the refund as an option and I declined. Kudos to them! This post was to show what Moses considers the composite build as acceptable. Other composite manufacturers might consider this second quality. I showed a picture and voiced my opinion, you make your own choice but now you know. To me the attention to small details matter to others not so much as it shows.

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Re: Moses Quality Control is ... you decide

Postby cwood » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:15 pm

norcom wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:33 pm
cwood wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:16 pm
I guess my opinion is that you are worried about something that has zero impact on any use or performance. It does not make contact with the water flow, does not impact strength or function....therefor a waste of time and cost to remedy as part of production. I'll say it again, perfect and expensive cosmetics like Alpine make no difference other than perhaps the initial impression. Wildly expensive due to the attention to every detail....even where it makes no difference.
Would you mind posting what your connection point looks like on the new mast you received?
Would be happy to. Flying out of town till tomorrow night but will post for you on my return.


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