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Timing when carving

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neilhapgood
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Timing when carving

Postby neilhapgood » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:04 pm

I am still struggling with the heel to toe carves, probably my third post on the subject! I have wobbled round a few but still far from great, I am wondering if people wait for the kite to be diving the other way before they start the turn, I have been a bit wary of doing this as have heard stories of injuries on 'toe side death runs', I am tending to turn too soon and get some slack line so I know I need to wait a bit longer but not sure when to start the turn. Also do people recommend bringing the kite right over the top or turning it harder from 10 or 2 and bringing it back through the window?

Thanks all

Neil

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby Frank Rosin » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:02 pm

For me the easiest is to turn first and have the kite following (with the downloop).

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby slowboat » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:31 pm

neilhapgood wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:04 pm
I am still struggling with the heel to toe carves, probably my third post on the subject! I have wobbled round a few but still far from great, I am wondering if people wait for the kite to be diving the other way before they start the turn, I have been a bit wary of doing this as have heard stories of injuries on 'toe side death runs', I am tending to turn too soon and get some slack line so I know I need to wait a bit longer but not sure when to start the turn. Also do people recommend bringing the kite right over the top or turning it harder from 10 or 2 and bringing it back through the window?

Thanks all

Neil
I just went through this learning curve so I can relate to your question. (after about 7 sessions working only on this, I am almost 100% on this turn) When learning, it is easier to not downloop. It helps to have the kite high and then try to bring it to the other side of the window by turning it on its axis with sharp tug with back hand. I wait until the kite just begins to turn BEFORE turning my board. If you time it right, you can maintain tension on the lines and then be ready to sheet out to avoid getting pulled downwind while toeside (another reason to keep kite high). If timing is a bit off, lines can go slack......if that happens, you want to turn more tightly to retension lines before you sink. An early mistake I used to make was to focus so much on the board that I would forget about the kite mid-turn and screw up. Remember, If kite does not complete the turn, you are not going to complete the turn. Also don't forget to lean into the turn. I am now waiting till kite has crossed the window before turning board...super fun.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Timing when carving

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:12 am

The ultimate test of "how good" you have become at carving, is how low can you go :thumb:

So when able to carve around flying with say a 12 m2 in 7-8 knots, then you have nailed it.

When learning you need more wind and smaller kites - everything is easier then, work your way "down" to lower wind from there.

My take on how I do it:

Fly the kite relatively low, say 10 o'clock (about 30 degrees up), and ride as high upwind you can without losing speed.
Start flying the kite up, and immediately after the kite turn has been initiated - you carve around.
It has to be a simultaneously carve, while the kite flies up to 12, and when you go around board on the new tack, the kite dives down to 1 or 2 o'clock so you end on the new tack with kite down again.
It has to be a fluid smooth move, dont yank the kite, nor follow it, but do it in sync.
When you fly the kite up you avoid getting slack lines, and you can dive it on the new tack to retain power and glide.

Longer lines help immensely - you will get an even smoother carve with power all the way through even in low wind, with longer lines :rollgrin:

And a tight firm carve is a must in low wind, think yaw to get it tight.

If you start to carve before you give the kite input, your kite wont turn and it will be a mess...
If you turn the kite around too much before you start the carve, you will end up with slack lines during the carve or on the new tack, and no power left to continue...
None of this is an issue in more wind though, but you will really find out how important it is, in less wind :roll:

Downloop carves particularly in low winds, is a very different thing though, and several techniques can be used for this.

8) PF

tmcfarla
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Re: Timing when carving

Postby tmcfarla » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:07 am

Do you use really small kites when foiling ? For a long time I was going out on as small a kite as I could use and having a lot of trouble with carving to toe-side, as soon as I switched to using a slightly larger kite (maybe 1-2 m smaller than surfboard size), it clicked pretty much right away.

Also, I find it easier to bring kite overhead rather than downloop, but I try to keep it low in the window. I start turning board as kite is working it’s way overhead. Don’t forget that you’ll need to adjust pressure to your new front foot.

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby plummet » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:06 am

+1^

Kite selection in the right power range is key I think. Too big and you will get the toeside death run. too little and you will have to do all sorts of kite gymnastics to keep foiling during and after the turn.

My suggestion is powered to well powered for a foil, but not overpowered. For me that's 8m 14-17 knots. You have enough power to easily do an upturn or downturn without slacklining or entering into a high-speed death run.

I think and upturn is easier to start with as you can more easily regulate the turn speed and adjust to suit your carve radius. Downturn is ultimately better, but you are commited to loop speed once starting and need to be able to carve the appropriate radius to suit the loop as apposed to fly the appropriate turn to suit the carve radius.

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby slowboat » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:35 am

You guys have given OP good advice. Plummet's comments on turn radius is really good and most agree that a downloop is harder to time while learning.

Any additional thoughts on going the other direction (toeside to heelside carve)? The same principles should apply but for some reason I am less consistent toeside to heelside than heelside to toeside.

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:16 pm

slowboat wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:35 am
You guys have given OP good advice. Plummet's comments on turn radius is really good and most agree that a downloop is harder to time while learning.

Any additional thoughts on going the other direction (toeside to heelside carve)? The same principles should apply but for some reason I am less consistent toeside to heelside than heelside to toeside.

I cant carve "back" as good either, as when frontside (from heelside to toeside).

Two reasons for this:
I dont ride as high upwind when toeside, so the start of the carve back is not as good. But it could just be me, as not as flexible as many.
The other reason is your body is "designed" to look into the turn and follow your head and knees, so more difficult the other way. The key is to look hard over your shoulder, to get a good tight carve back from toeside :thumb:

When more wind it is easy, but in marginal winds below 8 knots I can carve heel to toe much better than the other way - and I sometimes "cheat" when going back - by doing a downloop instead, as often a better outcome (for me) in this situation, starting to carve back just before the downloop.
Eventhough I generally prefer to avoid downloops where your carve and line gets "fixed" beforehand (when more wind) and not as many options for tweaking or re-decide on the way around.

8) PF

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby plummet » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:17 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:16 pm
slowboat wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:35 am
You guys have given OP good advice. Plummet's comments on turn radius is really good and most agree that a downloop is harder to time while learning.

Any additional thoughts on going the other direction (toeside to heelside carve)? The same principles should apply but for some reason I am less consistent toeside to heelside than heelside to toeside.

I cant carve "back" as good either, as when frontside (from heelside to toeside).

Two reasons for this:
I dont ride as high upwind when toeside, so the start of the carve back is not as good. But it could just be me, as not as flexible as many.
The other reason is your body is "designed" to look into the turn and follow your head and knees, so more difficult the other way. The key is to look hard over your shoulder, to get a good tight carve back from toeside :thumb:

When more wind it is easy, but in marginal winds below 8 knots I can carve heel to toe much better than the other way - and I sometimes "cheat" when going back - by doing a downloop instead, as often a better outcome (for me) in this situation, starting to carve back just before the downloop.
Eventhough I generally prefer to avoid downloops where your carve and line gets "fixed" beforehand (when more wind) and not as many options for tweaking or re-decide on the way around.

8) PF
Interestingly I can carve better toe to heel. I think it might be from years of longboard, longboard skate, landboard and freeboard riding? It just seems natural to me.

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Re: Timing when carving

Postby juandesooka » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:01 pm

Interesting variations in advice here. My experience:

-- agree that it's easier not to complicate this with mixing a downloop in. Which means you need a bigger kite, as you want some power to pull you through the turn. Not OP, just not a tiny kite dangling there without power.

-- the turn is similar to riding a surfboard: the classic advice being to follow the kite through the turn, pointing your board's nose at the kite. [though you can play with that timing. EG if overpowered, you might have kite at noon, start slowly turning the board first, then catch up with the kite; or if underpowered you might whip the kite through the turn first then immediately follow the board in the brief burst of acceleration (which is what the looping does)]

-- when first learning, your tendency will be to do a tentative and very wide turn ... which means you will lose board speed, kite power, and potentially bog down. Have to work on tightening up the turning radius, just like a surfboard, a sharper carve not a long slow steering turn [think jetski, not oil tanker ;-) ] On a nice tight carve at speed, you can drag your hand in the water for extra style points....when you're able to lay out and lean in, not standing vertically, you know you're turning with speed and in tighter radius.

-- I find the heelside to toeside easier, because you are leaning into the turn, towards the kite. In contrast, toeside to heelside you are leaning backward away from the kite....a little more difficult to balance. Though the toe to heel is more fun ... on a swell, that's the classic frontside surfing carve, feels good when you "stomp it" with a tight radius 180. [and for those wanting something different, that's the turn that makes the spitfire canard style really noticable, turns entirely off back foot pressure, feels like a surf turn]
Last edited by juandesooka on Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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