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Line length, gybing and down-looping

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Slyde
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Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Slyde » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:42 am

Some advice please from those of you racing or high-performance freeriding with racefoil kites. Im finally starting to get my foiling gybes sorted but find especially with my 15m R1 (but also my 11 sometimes) that I have a habit of crashing the bottom tip of the kite in the water on the downloop (and then its all over). I was on 18m lines but went back to 20m lines as I thought that might give me a little more leeway . I try to initiate the downloop as I switch feet so that the kite flying over the top creates lift and is already starting the downloop as I carve, and then carve hard out of the turn to keep line tension. I do notice that the faster i can go the more i beat the kite through the turn so sometimes the kite is almost pulled through the turn behind me, but about 30% of my gybes end in a tip crash and I have the bar totally cranked over to get as much turn as I can but without success. So my questions are:
Am I better with the leeway of longer lines and a slower turning kite or should I use shorter lines so the kite turns faster, or will the smaller window make a tip crash more likely?
Would a tuning in a little more z line tension help the kite turn faster?
Should I initiate the downloop before I switch feet or after once I am carving?
Is grabbing the leader line to help the kite turn a useful thing to do?

Thanks, please only replies from those skilled in gybes with foil kites.

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Pedro Marcos » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Hi,

I had the same problem with my 17m R1V2 with 17m lines, which is harder then with your 15m but still doable when done properly.

Steps, going in whatever direction heelside:

1 - With speed start moving the kite up (almost to the zenith)
2- When the kite almost at the zenith, maintaining speed, change your feet
3 - Right after changing your feet, do the gybe and at that time start downlooping the kite
4 - You should already be in the new direction BEFORE the kite will pass in the middle of the power zone, so you can easily carve and power up to get the speed you lost in the gybe.

If you are touching the water means:

1- Your are not moving your kite up enough before the downloop
2- Your kite is passing the power zone while you are making the gybe, so not enough line tension to make the kite turn properly


Checking some videos will help understand this, but thats basicaly it.

Have fun

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Frank Rosin » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:35 pm

The most extreme combination I tried is R1V2 17m on 10m lines (and only a 50cm bar even).
It works.
19m R1V2 on 14m lines works well too.
It is all about timing really.
I would say I got the kite following more, after bringing it all the way up before initiating the loop.

Looping to waterstart is a completely different story though! Longer lines needed. But 18m lines should work for that with any kite.

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby cglazier » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:12 pm

I use 20m lines with my Chrono v2 13m kite. I have success when I switch my feet first and only then begin the gybe and down loop (start with the kite high). Pedro explains it well above.

:wink: CG

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:57 pm

Not racing, but same principles I think, when you go fast downwind and downloop carving back and fourth:

Kite up high (switch feet), and then do the turn while initiating the downloop. The loop will be a bit later as it takes some time for the kite to start turning.

This way your kite will "follow" a bit after you, meaning the lines will be tight, and the kite turns much snappier now, and no risk of hitting the water, compared to if you start the downloop too early.

As others have said once: You actually turn underneath the kite first (almost), and loop it down and around from up high - this is how Frank and others with supershort lines can manage these turns so well :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby davesails7 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:09 pm

I would guess probably not putting your kite high enough before the downloop. I should be directly overhead.

Also, maybe not enough speed. If you have speed and ride towards the kite as it downloops. it pretty much downloops in place, as seen in this video by the guy on the right at 0:29: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdGR-9hbC74 Lots of other good jibes in this video also.

Once you get the hang of it, downlooping the 15m kite on 17m lines should not be an issue at all. I've seen it done on a 15m on 10m by guys better than me. It does suck when that wingtip hits though! You're cruising along and can't stop as the kite rolls over itself and suck water in through the intake :(

[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdGR-9hbC74[/youtube]

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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby gmb13 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:03 pm

Probably the combo of kite not high enough before starting the loop, and initiating the loop before starting to turn the board.

Here is a video that shows the timing. This is on a 9m kite on 10m lines.

phpBB [video]


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Last edited by gmb13 on Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Slyde
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Slyde » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:06 pm

Ok thanks guys, more practice needed .seems it takes so much longer to learn new stuff as I get older. Dave the La Ventana video is interesting in that at about 49 seconds there are 2 Kiter’s gybing together and the second one almost does a tip crash despite the majority of the gybe looking sweet. That’s my problem. In the meantime I’m getting pretty good at relaunching crashed foil kites but when you stick it in the water while you’re still moving through the gybe it’s easy to roll the kite or get the foil in the lines, then it’s game over and a swim in for me :oops:
In this https://youtu.be/d67fsR9NszE video at 28 secs there is a gybe from natural to switch where the down loop seems to be initiated before the gybe, followed by a switch to natural gybe where the gybe happens well before the down loop is initiated but I think in both situations he keeps way better speed through the gybe than me.
Should I stay with 20 m lines till I get it? Short lines feel so much better but not when you’re swimming!

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davesails7
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby davesails7 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:01 am

Slyde wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:06 pm
Dave the La Ventana video is interesting in that at about 49 seconds there are 2 Kiter’s gybing together and the second one almost does a tip crash despite the majority of the gybe looking sweet.
The around 32 seconds? That one is interesting in seeing how different the turn radius of the kite can be depending on your technique.

The guy on the right keeps more speed, his lines never go slack, he doesn't even use the half the distance to the water!

It looks like the guy on the left slows down much more and the lines go slack on him. Maybe he held the bar in too long? At some point, you do have to let the bar out a bit to get the kite to start flying forward through the loop. Although, it could also be that he purposely used all of the space he had to make the loop bigger and get more speed coming out of the jibe.
Slyde wrote: In this https://youtu.be/d67fsR9NszE video at 28 secs there is a gybe from natural to switch where the down loop seems to be initiated before the gybe, followed by a switch to natural gybe where the gybe happens well before the down loop is initiated but I think in both situations he keeps way better speed through the gybe than me.
I was there for that race and was amazed by Riley Gibbs's jibes. Watching him was when it first clicked for me how the jibe could work on short lines with the big foil kite. I think he said he was on 10m lines with his 15m kite. I think he can just do whatever he wants as far as timing and it's just going to work out because he never slows down to less than 30 knots :lol: He also might have held off on the downloop the second time because he was close to the other kiter. The timing of the first jibe seems to be closer to the timing that works for me (albeit at about 10 knots less board speed...)

Slyde
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Re: Line length, gybing and down-looping

Postby Slyde » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:04 am

Foiling is such a technical sport, you really appreciate just how skilled those top riders are when you try to emulate them. There's guys gybing at full speed 30 knots within a couple of metres of each other in some of the races these days. Respect.


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