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Better upwind performance

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slowboat
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Better upwind performance

Postby slowboat » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:03 pm

If one is using an SUP foil and a wave kite what change would yield significantly better upwind angles: different foil or different kite? If the answer is different foil (as I expect it is), are race foils significantly better than free ride foils as far as upwind angles?

Thanks

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:09 pm

slowboat wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:03 pm
If one is using an SUP foil and a wave kite what change would yield significantly better upwind angles: different foil or different kite? If the answer is different foil (as I expect it is), are race foils significantly better than free ride foils as far as upwind angles?

Thanks

Yes, definitely better.

But you have to be more powered usually, to be able to obtain the better upwind performance :D

Some freeride hydrofoils are quite high aspect though, which is almost the only determining factor, as long as the profile isnt "rubbish" :naughty:

Where freeride hydrofoils are lower AR, to make them turn faster, and have a softer stall - but the upwind goes down the drain pretty fast...

8) PF

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:49 pm

So not too get too overwrought in my explanation, but race hydrofoils will make the best "VMG" in an upwind/downwind course format compared to other design types. The reason that might not be useful is that it might be a lower angle to the wind at a much faster speed over ground that does that, so in terms of "pointing higher" there might be surf/freeride foils that can, but they won't get to a fixed point upwind as fast as a race foil.

So within all those shades of grey is where your answer lies. Another way to say that is that race foils go around a windward/leeward course faster than any other kind of foil, but that's not what most people want when they buy a foil (unless they're getting into racing).

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue May 01, 2018 5:09 am

I agree 200 % with mossy. Upwind angle with a freeride kite is really great . You just go slower in case you wantto haveca hard upwind angle (Which has few interest if you do not race because you sail far away from coast much rapidely) . And I would add that if you want ro run very fast with a freeride foil , you just need to ride perpandicular to the wind ... which can regularly be impossible with a racekite (too dangerous and not designed for that).

Well explained Mossy.

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby cglazier » Tue May 01, 2018 6:14 am

slowboat wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:03 pm
If one is using an SUP foil and a wave kite what change would yield significantly better upwind angles:
I presume what you want is better upwind performance. You certainly need a faster foil.. ideally a race foil will give you optimum upwind performance. Your upwind angle could also be increased just by using a bigger wing but that doesn't do you much good if it is thick and slow.

And you certainly need to replace your wave kite with a higher aspect kite such as the Ozone Edge inflatable or any racing foil kite. This will give you the best performance at every angle of sail (including a reach or "perpendicular").

But you may not really want this if you want ease of use, to ride waves and to do low speed maneuvers..

:wink: CG

(and don't try to combine these things: a racing foil doesn't go well with a wave kite, and a slow wave foil doesn't go well with a race kite)

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby foilonfoil » Tue May 01, 2018 6:51 am

High aspect foil kites sit more forward in the wind window providing you more pull upwind.

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby Foil » Tue May 01, 2018 7:30 am

if your not into racing I would question why anyone would want to get that bit extra upwind angle as the upwind angle you get with the most basic gear is astoundingly good, unbelievably good when your sailing around other water uses.

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby gmb13 » Tue May 01, 2018 8:20 am

slowboat wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:03 pm
If one is using an SUP foil and a wave kite what change would yield significantly better upwind angles: different foil or different kite? If the answer is different foil (as I expect it is), are race foils significantly better than free ride foils as far as upwind angles?

Thanks
Hi.

The others have not read your post properly. You are asking about upwind angles. Actually the possible upwind angle of your Supfoil will be pretty close to a racefoil on the same kite. It will be significantly slower though.

What might be limiting you on upwind angles on your SUP foil, might be the mast length. If you are on a 60 or 70cm mast, you will not be able to lean the board over as much as a 90 or 100cm mast, and hence have less possible angle.

Another important component is obviously the kite. A wave kite will not allow you to go at very high angles to the wind compared to a Race Kite on short lines.

To answer Foils question: To get back to the peak faster and easier. If you have breaking waves, it is good to be able to go around them and then cut upwind out back. This is done a lot easier if you can get upwind faster.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby slowboat » Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 am

gmb13 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:20 am
slowboat wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:03 pm
If one is using an SUP foil and a wave kite what change would yield significantly better upwind angles: different foil or different kite? If the answer is different foil (as I expect it is), are race foils significantly better than free ride foils as far as upwind angles?

Thanks
Hi.

The others have not read your post properly. You are asking about upwind angles. Actually the possible upwind angle of your Supfoil will be pretty close to a racefoil on the same kite. It will be significantly slower though.

What might be limiting you on upwind angles on your SUP foil, might be the mast length. If you are on a 60 or 70cm mast, you will not be able to lean the board over as much as a 90 or 100cm mast, and hence have less possible angle.

Another important component is obviously the kite. A wave kite will not allow you to go at very high angles to the wind compared to a Race Kite on short lines.

To answer Foils question: To get back to the peak faster and easier. If you have breaking waves, it is good to be able to go around them and then cut upwind out back. This is done a lot easier if you can get upwind faster.

--
Gunnar
Thanks for everyone's responses but Gunnar is correct: my discussion is about upwind ANGLES, not about getting upwind as quickly as possible. If as he states "the possible upwind angle of your Supfoil will be pretty close to a racefoil on the same kite", then the answer to my first question is that using a different kite will yield better upwind ANGLES compared to using a different foil. Interesting.
He also brought up mast length and line length. I understand the mast length effect, not sure why shorter lines would matter as far as upwind angles.

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Re: Better upwind performance

Postby evan » Tue May 01, 2018 10:19 am

Also good to note is that the latest "race" hydrofoils (and kites also) are way easier to ride compared to a few years ago, often even more stable than most freeride or even beginner foils. Saw a few freeriders change around here, that are not into waveriding and carving, immediatly after they tested it. Enjoying the stability and extra performance.

Shorter lines means you can hold more power and have a kite that sits a few degrees closer to the edge of the wind window due to less line drag and faster reaction to input and gusts. Bot power and kite position in the wind window contribute to a better upwind angle.
Downside with too much power is that you can not maintain a proper speed so ultimatlely you end up with a worse VMG when overpowered, althoug you can get some insane (like 30deg upwind if 0deg is dead upwind) angles then!


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