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How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

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Horst Sergio
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How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby Horst Sergio » Tue May 01, 2018 12:31 pm

evan wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:19 am
... , althoug you can get some insane (like 30deg upwind if 0deg is dead upwind) angles then!
Sorry for stealing evan's quote from this already existing topic http://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2399463 ,
but I thought this question earns it's own topic:

For twintip users it might sound strange discussing if it is possible to go even higher than 45° but I think it has two interesting aspects:

1. Upwind angle tells you precise something about the combined "system glide ratio" of kite and foil, which is the most important factor also for lowind kiting.
Always interested if a low AR 4 monofoil could be better than a two wing racefoil with AR >7
2. Even the difference between both luxurious 35° to 45° upwind can decide, if you will be able to pass an obstacle (boat, Island, etc.) or if you maybe have to do two extra tacks and risk to fall in maybe difficult wind conditions behind some islands as this one:
Kitejunkie-Island-Track.jpg
For measuring I think a 3 or better 4 tacks-upwind-track is the most meaningful method, which is not influenced to much by wind direction changes.

I have taken this old and sorry not to nice track from my first test with the levitaz Cruizer monofoil in as I remember just arround 14 knt with a 8,6 m² Sonic²
http://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19 ... 5&start=60
Kitejunkie-Upwind-Angle-Cruizer-Monofoil.jpg
Kitejunkie-Upwind-Angle-Cruizer-Monofoil.jpg (86.01 KiB) Viewed 3181 times
But last days I have once been out with the Cruizer and 6,4 m² at up to 30 knts and upwind from visual view felt like a lot better than 30° but no track and would not believe it myself, but hope to make a track in the near future in similar conditions.

So where are the plots from racers when going slow, but well powered not to get the best VMG, but the highest angle?

Very interested to see.

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby cglazier » Tue May 01, 2018 2:29 pm

Impressive Horst. Any upwind angle better than 40 degrees is impressive. :wink:

But tracks really should be measured only where there is absolutely no current.. hard to find except maybe on an inland lake.

:wink: CG

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby evan » Tue May 01, 2018 6:42 pm

We have nice spots without current ;)

Here the track with insane angles, could only hold the kite low between the gusts of 30kn on a 10m and too scrared to go any faster.
Attachments
SAVE_20180501_193829.jpeg

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby PullStrings » Tue May 01, 2018 7:33 pm

How high is it possible with a racing sailing ice boat ? Anyone knows?

That would be the highest angle i believe

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 01, 2018 8:20 pm

Good angles, cool !

I go 45 degree on my high aspect Ketos/Takoon freeride wing, when powered on a low AR LEI wavekite no matter what size almost, higher than that is very rare.

The angles you guys show above, is that with a foilkite or a tube (low or high AR) ?
Makes quite some difference in my experience.

Disagree (in the other thread) that the big low AR SUP wings and similar point almost as high - I see a huge performance loss regarding upwind angle, as soon as you lower the AR, no matter if a small or big wing, compared to higher AR wings :wink:
But agree that they point almost as high as faster/smaller racewings, where it is VMG that counts and not angle, besides being powered a lot more.

High AR freeride wings though, can outpoint every other wing IMO :D
But they are not that common actually :roll:

8) PF

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby Sandras » Wed May 02, 2018 6:30 am

cglazier wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:29 pm

But tracks really should be measured only where there is absolutely no current.. hard to find except maybe on an inland lake.
I must be missing something, please help me understand it.
If you take 2 consecutive upwind tacks from the GPS file, measure their angle between them and divide by 2,don't you get the upwind angle and also have taken the current out of the equation?

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby Peert » Wed May 02, 2018 7:39 am

Sandras wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:30 am
I must be missing something, please help me understand it.
If you take 2 consecutive upwind tacks from the GPS file, measure their angle between them and divide by 2,don't you get the upwind angle and also have taken the current out of the equation?
No you don't. Picture this: if current is against the wind you upwind angles will be better than when current is in the same direction as wind. Averaging the two tacks does not take the current factor out..

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby evan » Wed May 02, 2018 8:14 am

The current stretches and compacting the gps track depending on the direction and strength of the current compared to a spot with standing water. Making it impossible to go upwind if you have a tt or surfboard with a strong enough Downwind current to nullify your vmg.

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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby Sandras » Wed May 02, 2018 9:40 am

OK, got you!
Thank you both.

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Horst Sergio
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Re: How high are you pointing upwind? Are 30° already possible?

Postby Horst Sergio » Thu May 03, 2018 9:19 am

@cglazier:
Thanks and good Point with the current, but I think has been answered well frome evan:
Shouldn't have relevant influence when wind is dead onshore even if there is still a bit of a current and also not on deep bays and lakes without relevant current where I normaly ride.

@Evan:
Good one, but just one tack and you didn't try to go as high and therefore as slow as possible, don't you?

@Pullstring:
Would be interessting on ice, but wouldn't be sure, have done a bit of ice sailing myself and it is all not just about the low drag of ice but of the drag ratio and here ice need not to be better.

@Peter Frank:
Yes all well performing foil kites as sonics in my case. When I am riding my wave and no strut kites also my angles are worse than 45°.
Important aspect is to have a small speed ratio (riding speed) / (wind speed), so riding with a big freeride wing even with worse glide ratio in high wind can create better angle than racefoil setup with high minimum speed good glide ratio especially in low wind.

And that's why it is so important to have minimum 3, better 4 tacks to verify results, otherwise similar to polar diagramms it is not possible to cut out the wind shifts, which can be up to 90° on our lakes. One example for a not realy 45° tack so not realy 22° against the wind track, done with my old zeeko Makaira, which was good, but not that good :wink:
Zeeko-Makaira-Freeride-m.jpg


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