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Marginal wind kites ?

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Peter_Frank
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Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:40 pm

We have had several threads about this, but would like to start one again - now where we have more options to choose from, and probably many have got more experience now and might be able to compare race versus freeride UL foil kites.

Which kites seem to work the best in marginal wind for foiling ?

Light and strutless tubes works great down to 6-7 knots, but then its over as they can be kept in the air quite easy when looped, but not sufficient peak power to start foiling.

Race foil kites if not the UL ones, tend to drop and fold too when 6 knots and less, if not super stable smooth wind, so should be the UL ones...

Take the wind numbers with a grain of salt, it is not the topic.

But which kites can work in the lowest wind ?
Not talking racing, just which works in low wind.

For the average weight it seems that around a 15 m2 foilkite will give you the same lowend as bigger ones, and hangs just as well or easier because they are more agile, but again 12-13 m2 kites are really powerful when looped too, and 18 m2s has pure pull of course.
Could be part of the topic, but firstly, which ones "hang" the best ?
The single skin foil kites maybe ? But apparently they have issues not delivering sufficient peak power to start foiling :roll:

Relaunch is not a question with these kites, as one must expect a swim anyways - so doesnt matter.
It is all about being able to keep the kite in the air, and have sufficient peak power to start foiling, even if really long lines :D


Some of the contenders could be:

Racekites in the light versions - but they turn a bit slow because of higher AR usually, and seem to "fold" easier.
Concept Air Pulsion light version.
Aeros Navy2 light version.
Ozone Hyperlink UltraLight, max size 12 m2 though.
Pansh Aurora 2 Ultralight.

What are the experiences today ? Any others not mentioned ?

8) PF

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby jakemoore » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:41 pm

Add to the list single skin e.g. FS Peak and Gin Shaman. The most compelling videos I have seen are Regis on the Pulsion and KiteFinder crew on the Peak.

Also open cell foils might have lighter construction than closed, and if relaunch is off the table it may be easier to roll an open cell or single skin up tight and swim in. I’m 2 for 2 (100% successs) relaunching Ozone Summit from water in surfboard winds. Obviously I don’t want to push my luck here and I’m not worried about the swim.



Pansh Ultralight is heavier than Hyperlink in standard cloth.
.

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Frank Rosin » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:19 am

My choice in tricky shifty, gusty conditions with lulls down to almost zero is the Ozone Hyperlink 12m UL.
Gives me solid confidence to keep the kite dry and even if not, to be able to relaunch.
If I do not have it on my shortest lines it does not need much wind to get me going.
The great thing about this kite is that it has a massive wind range it can be used in and is actually a lot of fun in.

But for sure the ultimate low end weapon I experienced is the 21m Ozone R1V2.
It blew me away on a few days already. Super stable in very light winds (before getting up and going is possible (for me) even).
It is most fun and impressive when water is super calm and the wind is consistent.
The last session I used it, I do not think I could have been riding with any other kite I know/have used before (incl. the 19m R1V2).

Cheers,
Frank
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Peert » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:08 am

On our local spot the Kitech Free RS in 12 meter is the last one on the water when wind drops.
No clue how these would compare against hyperlink, conceptair or flysurfer soul and the likes...
Hard to give a value in knots.. But looks like sub 6.

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Pedro Marcos » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:44 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:40 pm
We have had several threads about this, but would like to start one again - now where we have more options to choose from, and probably many have got more experience now and might be able to compare race versus freeride UL foil kites.

Which kites seem to work the best in marginal wind for foiling ?

Light and strutless tubes works great down to 6-7 knots, but then its over as they can be kept in the air quite easy when looped, but not sufficient peak power to start foiling.

Race foil kites if not the UL ones, tend to drop and fold too when 6 knots and less, if not super stable smooth wind, so should be the UL ones...

Take the wind numbers with a grain of salt, it is not the topic.

But which kites can work in the lowest wind ?
Not talking racing, just which works in low wind.

For the average weight it seems that around a 15 m2 foilkite will give you the same lowend as bigger ones, and hangs just as well or easier because they are more agile, but again 12-13 m2 kites are really powerful when looped too, and 18 m2s has pure pull of course.
Could be part of the topic, but firstly, which ones "hang" the best ?
The single skin foil kites maybe ? But apparently they have issues not delivering sufficient peak power to start foiling :roll:

Relaunch is not a question with these kites, as one must expect a swim anyways - so doesnt matter.
It is all about being able to keep the kite in the air, and have sufficient peak power to start foiling, even if really long lines :D


Some of the contenders could be:

Racekites in the light versions - but they turn a bit slow because of higher AR usually, and seem to "fold" easier.
Concept Air Pulsion light version.
Aeros Navy2 light version.
Ozone Hyperlink UltraLight, max size 12 m2 though.
Pansh Aurora 2 Ultralight.

What are the experiences today ? Any others not mentioned ?

8) PF
Im quite the sure a 15m2 UL foil kite will not give you the same low end of the bigger sizes, i own a 15m Chrono V2 UL and it will not get me moving in 4-5 knots like my 19m R1V2 does. It seems the 21m will even get you 1 knot lower. Its very important that this big kites fly very stable, you should not need to fight to keep them in the air in 4-5 knots, they should hang in there like it was 8, so i believe its still important the "brand" you choose for this big ones.

You can still fly a 15m race kite in long lines 20 or 25m, and it will get you a extra bit of low end and will not be very unconfortable when the wind gets stronger, but i think a 19m wont work on long lines, the power it will generate would be too much and really not needed, so shorter lines are mandatory for the big ones.

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby marekmk » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:31 pm

for me at 72kg and my mediocre foil ability the 9m hyperlink in the lightweight fabric works well for me in sub 10 knots. have tried the 12m but I get more power out of the 9m by being able to move the kite faster. this at the moment is the choice for me with light winds, at my skill level that is 7-10 knots. if I wanted to go lower it would be a 15 chrono or sonic

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:29 pm

Peter I cannot refrain to participate ! :D

If the (Interesting) topic is on the ultimate marginal lower end ability, i.e. being able to launch , go out of coast in the water, waterstart and stay upwind.
Then to me the Conceptair Pulsion is the winner and i think that most testers will confirm. In 15m or 18m depending on rider weight.

With the recent lower wind references from 2 years in which these kites can now fly, a 12m2 is not powerful enough to get you out , even with 60kg like I am.

I did not try the brm cloud that is maybe a very good competitor even if would bet it needs more wind ; but from other kites I owned or tried (all FS speeds 2-3-4-5 including silver arrow, kitech frs, aurora v2 light, Elf j5) and the ones tested by friends which also tested the Pulsion (Pelican, Hyperlink, sonic2, chrono 1, PL Aero), Pulsion is better hanging in the sky (15m is 1.8kg only) and more "gliding " loop (Moderate ratio), and stable in marginal wind.

Single skin kites like Peak or Shaman with their 12m2 max and "backstalled" loop have not enough power. I had a peak 9m and IMO it needs more wind than Pulsion to keep in the air when looped or after a lull in the edge of window . Also they lack internal pressure to keep the kite in shape, so less rigid in ponctual ultimate lulls leading to 4 slack lines during some precious seconds. Even on snow I do better now with my pulsion than peak.

And on top of that you keep a chance to relaunch after a punctual lull or rider mistake even in poor wind thanks to moderate ratio (even if a bit out of topic but still ... useful )

I can only advise you to just try it with 27/30m lines !

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby flying grandpa » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:34 am

I fully agree with Regis-de-giens. Pulsion18 is the most reliable kite to bring me back to my spot, either on foil or bodydragging upwind.
It needs a lot of depower in gusts, but bring me back on four knots on my lake with lul’y wind.
It’s my best kite to relounch in light winds, and it is not keen to go in the drink.
Tadeusz

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Pedro Marcos » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:04 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:29 pm
Peter I cannot refrain to participate ! :D

If the (Interesting) topic is on the ultimate marginal lower end ability, i.e. being able to launch , go out of coast in the water, waterstart and stay upwind.
Then to me the Conceptair Pulsion is the winner and i think that most testers will confirm. In 15m or 18m depending on rider weight.

With the recent lower wind references from 2 years in which these kites can now fly, a 12m2 is not powerful enough to get you out , even with 60kg like I am.

I did not try the brm cloud that is maybe a very good competitor even if would bet it needs more wind ; but from other kites I owned or tried (all FS speeds 2-3-4-5 including silver arrow, kitech frs, aurora v2 light, Elf j5) and the ones tested by friends which also tested the Pulsion (Pelican, Hyperlink, sonic2, chrono 1, PL Aero), Pulsion is better hanging in the sky (15m is 1.8kg only) and more "gliding " loop (Moderate ratio), and stable in marginal wind.

Single skin kites like Peak or Shaman with their 12m2 max and "backstalled" loop have not enough power. I had a peak 9m and IMO it needs more wind than Pulsion to keep in the air when looped or after a lull in the edge of window . Also they lack internal pressure to keep the kite in shape, so less rigid in ponctual ultimate lulls leading to 4 slack lines during some precious seconds. Even on snow I do better now with my pulsion than peak.

And on top of that you keep a chance to relaunch after a punctual lull or rider mistake even in poor wind thanks to moderate ratio (even if a bit out of topic but still ... useful )

I can only advise you to just try it with 27/30m lines !
Never tried those kites, not sure if we can find them in europe, but looking at the design i expect the windrange to be quite small no? What would be in upper end of a 18m ?

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:47 am

Yes Concept'air can send them to Europe with some shipment and tax fee, say 200 Euro overall (I am in France).
Wind range is "as usual" to me for most kites (i.e. about a factor 2 between low end and high end) ;

High end is lower than a race kite of same size, but Aspect ratio increases with size (e.g. the 18m is quite similar to speed4 lotus 18) , thus high end is almost the same as 15m ; last month I have hydrofoiled the 18m in about 10-13 knots (LEI's were relaunching) in my lightwind configuration (i.e. 30 m thin lines + big foil wing, still 60 kg) ; It was beyond the "commonly agreed" comfort zone (my 12m would have been more fun for its agility, but I wanted to experience the high end in this 18m configuration ... and I finally rode about 2 hours) with a lot of pleasure and with some room before reaching my overpowered limit. For a 200lbs skilled guy on a TT high end should be around 20/23 knots but it is not the topic :lol: :lol: ... (It is almost 25 times more energy than 5 knots ...)


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