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Marginal wind kites ?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:02 pm

Really good input from so many :thumb:

Size seems to matter a lot when really low, eventhough maybe in a different way than pull/power, as the peak power is possibly close to the same for kites over 12 m2 when not too short lines.

But bigger kites in light fabric will have less wing loading so to speak, than a bit smaller ones even if the same fabric, so will not drop as fast in lulls - not only theory but what many experience.

Ability to waterstart seems to be the major issue at some point - sometimes more than the ability to start foiling :wink:

AND, the ability to have a kite that can pull you upwind if dead onshore - this is a really tricky one and sometimes not possible at all...
But that is another case - as with most peak power kites, you can fly or loop yourself out if wind a bit from the side, and start in less wind than the kite can hang - so two different scenarioes.


I think we all seek different types of marginal wind kites, some go for tubes, others go for freeride foil kites, some go for race foil kites.

And again, some will choose the biggest possible kite, others will choose a sufficiently big kite to obtain their personal marginal wind target - but still have both more upper end and more turning ability/fun.

My intention with this thread, was to share experiences, so everyone gets better at choosing a new kite for his/her personal marginal target.

8) PF

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:18 pm

Some weeks ago I made a table comparing foilkite ratios amomg low to high ratios (Not listing very high race kites) ; I think this is a good place to list it :

3.2 Viron (so low ! ...)
?? Concept'air Wave (should be in this range since smart classic is 3.2)
3.8 HQ Neo 11m (quite old now)
4.4 FS unity
4.7 A15 (deduced from Pansh website but seems a bit higher IMO : 5 to 5.2)
4.8 Kitech FRS (but one contradictorial info with 5.2)
4.85 : Speed4 DLX (10 m as max size)
4.7 Pulsion (in 12m but increases with size, 5.75 in 18m)
5.04 Pulsion 12 "S"
5.4 Revolt (from Zebrakite, old model now ...)
5.3 a 5.6 Hyperlink (estimation, data not available)
5.5 Soul (en 12m bit increases with size)
5.6 Aurora2 (deduced from Panshweb site, but maybe 5.8 as the Speed 4 lotus)
5.8 Speed4 Lotus
6.1 Navy 2
6.1 Pelican (equivalent in 12m since 6.2 in 13m and 5.8 in 10m)
6.15 Speed5 (should be similar as Chrono 2)
7.25 Sonic 2
7.75 Sonic Race
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mossy 757
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:04 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:18 pm
(Not listing very high race kites)

...

7.75 Sonic Race
:lol: Good one!

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:59 pm

One ppoint to you ... :thumb: I missed the "e" to say "every " :rollgrin:

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:11 pm

The Sonic Race its probably the highest AR kite in market, its the VMG even higher_?

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby kitexpert » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:13 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:18 pm
4.7 A15 (deduced from Pansh website but seems a bit higher IMO : 5 to 5.2)
I did a model of A15 18m based on wingspan and center chord given on Pansh homepage. SP gives a value of 5.1 for AR of that kite.

FS Soul shows that very good performance is possible without extreme high AR. LEI's are low AR kites but still much faster to react and in practice giving good performance. For example Ultras have very low projected AR's, but who would say performance of them is lower than for example Viron has?

If AR 5 wing is very smooth it can offer comparable performance to AR 6 wing, or even outperform it. Additional advantages with lower AR are better handling and stability. I'm currently designing that kind of kite, a high end AR 5 kite.

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Séb » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:49 am

Kitech FRS 12m is 5.2 AR.

As Peter said:
"And again, some will choose the biggest possible kite, others will choose a sufficiently big kite to obtain their personal marginal wind target - but still have both more upper end and more turning ability/fun."

I am in the second camp as for now and really enjoy my LW foiling sessions on the FRS 12m. Maybe when i will be able to get my aerial tack i will get a 18m foil kite but for now it is not needed. I want to get better with my aerial jibe/tack not with my swimming abilities lol

Frank Rosin
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Frank Rosin » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:59 am

Good point, super big kites on low end limit mostly make sense when you only rarely touchdown or even crash.
Keep them flying by keep flying (foiling) ;)

Cheers
Frank
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Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:04 pm

... and/or have a very very very light kite to withstand more frequent stops and waterstarts since transitions in marginal wind requires more skills and better timing ... so higher risk of kite slack lines. weight reduction reduces your swim frequency (for a given wind) with no target limit ... the lighter the best. I agree : you need to ensure kite will not crash by pilot error as it will not relaunch ;

As far as I know FS had tested a sonic race prototype in full 27gr cloth but it was too soft for the race target of this kite. I do not know if it is the serial cloth in this this video or prototype 27gr that could have certainly done even better in that case .

Thanks Seb for the 5.2 clarification on Kitech FRS. We had another contradictory info in march : Flat / Proj. Area 9.0 / 7.12 m2 , AR 5.0 , Weight kite with speed system and lines: 1950 g
Maybe AR is depending on size ?

Frank Rosin
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Frank Rosin » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:20 pm

My concern is less that the kite is falling out of the sky (of course it needs to be light and stable), but more that getting up and going is not the easiest thing to achieve when really pushing the low end. Every time there is the risk that it might not be successful again.

Cheers,
Frank
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