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Large compact wings for surfing on a hydrofoil

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Dwight
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Re: Large compact wings for surfing on a hydrofoil

Postby Dwight » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:40 pm

This all gets tricky because some big wings are thin, and from a surfers point of view, they suck pumping into waves compared to other thicker wings. That’s part of the reason no two people agree here.

In general, I think the Naish L, Cloud IX P27, NP Medium, GoFoil Kia, are the largest anyone needs kiting in waves to get the full, easy, wave riding experience.

Super large wings, like Takuma V900, NP Large, Naish XL, GoFoil IWA, Maliko 200 are not needed. They work, but don’t spend money on them unless you also need them for SUP or prone surfing

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Re: Large compact wings for surfing on a hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:35 am

Dwight wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:40 pm
This all gets tricky because some big wings are thin, and from a surfers point of view, they suck pumping into waves compared to other thicker wings. That’s part of the reason no two people agree here.

In general, I think the Naish L, Cloud IX P27, NP Medium, GoFoil Kia, are the largest anyone needs kiting in waves to get the full, easy, wave riding experience.

Super large wings, like Takuma V900, NP Large, Naish XL, GoFoil IWA, Maliko 200 are not needed. They work, but don’t spend money on them unless you also need them for SUP or prone surfing

I "think" I agree with you here....

Havnet tried bigger than 1200, being average weight, but as I sometimes prefer a tad smaller I can not see my need for bigger wings :roll:

Again, 2 years ago we were all riding 600 cm2 wings as "normal" not very small wings, so time will tell.

We could be surprised by a new trend indeed, and we could also be "in honeymoon" for the new bigger surf wings, and fall back to something in between (I think this is what is most likely, but time will tell...)

8) PF

PS: As Kami wrote, 20 knots is more than sufficient speed, 15 knots will be just fine too. It is only the feel of drag that can be a turnoff it too big, but it definitely can though :-?

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Re: Large compact wings for surfing on a hydrofoil

Postby juandesooka » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:17 am

I came into some slingshot gear, so I've been experimenting with the H2 and H4 wings. Had a fun session last weekend in some decent size wind swells, was sure noticable when the H4 caught a wave, as it would accelerate downwind towards the kite to point of wondering if it could drift fast enough to keep up or if I was going to overfly it. Tottering along on my tiptoes, just barely holding it together. I expect with more practice I'd get used to it and learn to make it work -- but have to admit it was a relief to get back onto my stringy wing and rip around laying out full speed carves. Felt like going from my SUP to a shortboard surfing......rocket powered skateboard, mmm.

I think I'll keep the H4 wing for novelty sessions. I suspect it'll be really fun when very under powered kite-wise and swells/waves to play in. That wing is described as loose and "skatey", with extreme gull wing shape ... wants to turn, not go straight, so call the lack of stability a positive in other ways. Not ideal as a SUP foil, I think they are now marketing it more as a low wind surfy kite wing.

I really like the looks of the Slingshot Infinity 76 and 84 (aka Ride Engine Manta). Keeping my eyes out for one of those. The 76 is getting great reviews for surf/sup, but also as a crossover kite/wake/tow option, as it can manage some higher end speeds for such a big wing. I am unsure if I am better off to go for the monster 84 for small wave sup maximum lift, or the slightly less area (but still pretty huge) 76. Winter is coming (so is Christmas and I know where santa keeps the credit card). :-)

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Re: Large compact wings for surfimg on a hydrofoil

Postby stevez » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:41 am

juandesooka wrote: I came into some slingshot gear, so I've been experimenting with the H2 and H4 wings. Had a fun session last weekend in some decent size wind swells, was sure noticable when the H4 caught a wave, as it would accelerate downwind towards the kite to point of wondering if it could drift fast enough to keep up or if I was going to overfly it. Tottering along on my tiptoes, just barely holding it together. I expect with more practice I'd get used to it and learn to make it work -- but have to admit it was a relief to get back onto my stringy wing and rip around laying out full speed carves. Felt like going from my SUP to a shortboard surfing......rocket powered skateboard, mmm.
Interesting your experience. I used to love my stringy wings until I got used to riding the bigger wings. Now I still enjoy it, but it's a different style, and I have to say I find it really difficult to ride in comparison.
slowboat wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:31 am
It seems the first popular wings in this category were around 1100-1200 cm2. Now I see more people kiting on 1400-1500 cm wings. Mine is 1126 (LF Impulse). I wonder if a bigger wing will be even better for small waves.
It's not just about the surface area, the profile is important too. Here's the kenalu wing from the front. It's profile is quite a bit thinner and sleeker than the gofoil for example, and the leading edge is sharper. The lift is not as aggressive. I don't find it too slow and draggy, it holds speed quite well without feeling like it's about to explode under you.

Maybe bigger wings with a thinner profile are what work best for kitefoiling in waves, at least if you're riding low kite power and trying to ride the wave itself, rather than high the high powered carving style.
20181114_182240.jpg

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Re: Large compact wings for surfimg on a hydrofoil

Postby Horst Sergio » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:18 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:48 am
So, in same order as posted, of course profile and outline means a lot but the outer measurements are the first we meet and also crucial in terms of how fast they turn versus how lousy they go upwind.
Depends from setup :wink: , the gong wings are pretty fat with more than 3 cm of thickness. Tried the 70 cm two times with and two without stabi. Once in a maybe much to big wave (think 1,4 m) it felt much to slow and blocked to react on the wave and to escape, but another time in much smaller waves it felt pretty nice and as the stabi is pretty flat it felt as free as such a big wing may feel. But as expected and bought for, the best feeling was after the mod. Not just upwind, but also here, at least I wouldn't call nearly 30° to the wind "lousy" :D
upwind_ALLVATOR-70cm-wing.jpg
AR = span*span/area:
Ketos 1200 ................. Area 1200 cm2 span 66.0 cm AR 3.6
Kenalu ...................... Area 1500 cm2 span 77.5 cm AR 4.0
Axis 820 .................... Area 1490 cm2 span 82.0 cm AR 4.5
LF Impulse ................. Area 1126 cm2 span 61.0 cm AR 3.3
Moses Onda 633 ........... Area 1239 cm2 span 63.3 cm AR 3.2
Naish Thrust Surf Large .. Area 1236 cm2 span 66.2cm AR 3.5
Gong Surf ................... Area 1450 cm2 span 70 cm AR 3.4
Gong SUP ................... Area 1926 cm2 span 80 cm AR 3.3
I have given the "developed" area while gong additionaly gives the "projected" area, but till now I always thought all values are ment to be the full area as used to give it for kites.

Now also have to try the 80 cm wing in this setup. But also don't think those wings will be my future all day wings, as looking for a < 500 cm² wing at the same time. But for experimenting and maybe small waves could be nice. :)
Gong-Monofoil.jpg
And to not confuse anybody, the black big part without the straps is the wing, not the board :wink:

Oh and also something I didn't expect: I was happy with the just 80 cm strut, even when doing 360s, could be longer but as everything is slower, less incline and free yaw, it works, also as wing tip breathing behaviour is also pretty good. And another benefit of such a setup is, that all parts with nearly the same size are great to pack:
Gong-Travel-Monofoil.jpg

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Re: Large compact wings for surfing on a hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:30 pm

Horst, how high can you go on a full on high AR racewing?

The 30 degrees isnt in marginal wind I assume.

When windy they all go upwind pretty well, no problem, it is in the low end and/or low powered you can feel the low AR (regardless of profile) go a lot less upwind, particularly with LEI kites of course.

And as many of us use these "big" wings in low wind (not marginal) with small LEI kites for riding waves, it can definitely be felt a lot in my experience.

Most often not a problem though, agree, but occasionally you find yourself suffering to get back upwind if you have gone downwind for many miles/kilometers to a wavespot, and you want to get back when the wind drops, before it is too late and you have to walk.
:oops:

8) PF

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Re: Large compact wings for surfing on a hydrofoil

Postby Horst Sergio » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:33 pm

Hi Peter,

I was also impressed by the upwind, as the conditions have been far far from good and the very fat round leading edge of Gong wings doesn't look like high performer.
- With a AR 7 carbon mono wing, a streamlined wetsuit and a 11 m² sonic race the best upwind: 28°out of 4 following tacks, while being close to overpower at around 18 knts and riding about 15 knts.
- with the shown alu AR 3,4 (or 3,9?) a wide drysuit and just a 9 m² sonic² I have already done 32°, but while being normal to underpowered in not more than 12 knts, bar fully sheeted in, which is very bad to go upwind with a foil kite …

But it is the underpowered conditions where monofoils exed in nearly all ways the performance of stabifoils significantly. Fits pretty well to the experience of pressure point movement. While on normal size foils it is just around 4 cm between with and without stabi. With the big wing it was something around 10 cm, which tells a lot of how much the handbreak was pulled in. I also could imagine that with the biggest wings the monofoil could be faster than the stabis, try to find out and will tell in the monofoil topic. First other experience is that these wings are super easy to ride, already very close to sit foiling with it.

But I am just on the start with experimenting with the big wings, main goal was to close the last gabs of monofoiling, to make sit foiling and pumping possible and also strapless, which I started, thanks to Øyvind. Setting records in upwind angle was not the Goal, but give it the next spring day with 16 knts, sonicrace, big wing and no doupt I go 25°, but doesn't matter, upwind is already more about the question, which scenery is more nice to look at than the question which upwind tack is needed :wink:

And as said, in long term and for most of the time I am sure to stay with something around 550 cm², maybe keeping a big wing for waves.

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Re: Large compact wings for surfimg on a hydrofoil

Postby juandesooka » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:49 pm

stevez wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:41 am
Interesting your experience. I used to love my stringy wings until I got used to riding the bigger wings. Now I still enjoy it, but it's a different style, and I have to say I find it really difficult to ride in comparison.
We may have similar experiences just in reverse. I am so used to my stringy wings that they feel like an extension of my body – after spending countless hours this summer zipping back and forth, practicing and training, I’ve just come up over the ridge to one of those plateaus where I feel like I can really push the wings to their limits. Really fun and I want MORE.

The point being: I shouldn’t expect to immediately feel so comfortable on a new wing set, especially when the surface area is doubled. A very different kind of riding, have to learn what the possibilities are and where they end (by repeated wipeouts and failure ;-) .

I am unsure if I’m willing to invest this time though, as the conditions that may justify a surf-style wing with kiting probably overlaps too much with days I’ll want to use other toys: either kiting with a surfboard (higher wind, breaking waves) or surf foiling with the sup foil (little to no wind, breaking waves). That being said, I’ll probably keep the H4 wing to use on that special day, where there’s waves to play in, wind too light to properly surf kite, but too windy to enjoy surfing without kite. More and more toys!


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