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Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

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kitexpert
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Re: Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

Postby kitexpert » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm

In LEI's LE is part of the airfoil. It is not just aerodynamics, but also rigidity in which even slightly thicker structure is considerably better. Ten years ago many LEI's had thin LE wingtips and there was some kites with had very thin LE like Best Nemesis. I had those kites and I liked some of their behavior but there was some undeniably drawbacks as well (twitchiness in gusts, wobblier feel and even collapsing/inverting under heavy loading). Also pumping these kites to over 10psi was quite a task with normal pumps, many light weight kiters (ladies especially) usually couldn't do it. However it is fortunate light weight riders can't load their kites so heavily.

I'm not saying A15 is not a good kite and for the price of it it has to be very good. Of course I could make it better by increasing cell count and perhaps having different airfoil etc., but then it wouldn't be same kite anymore. I meant by redesigning it to fix some not so good things (outdated) in line attachment points and in the bridle, perhaps adding canopy curve to make it more dynamic in flight... It isn't a race kite so why not make it a bit more fun to fly even if it loses perhaps 5-10% of PA?

If later adjustments could be very beneficial they would have been done already by the manufacturer, or even better having taken care the reasons for them earlier in the designing process. It is ridiculous to think that by distorting kite/airfoil to higher camber by tweaking the mixer is comparable to having higher camber airfoil at the first place.

Tweakings are not meant to make a kite, they are for slight adjustments for personal taste or for certain conditions/use. If you have a new very good kite like FS Soul, don't tweak it - for 99.5% probability it would only get worse. Just use it and wait until bridle and lines are settled.

I've flown and tuned couple of Pansh kites. They had slacking Z's which I corrected. Result was slow but quite well behaving kite. I don't think I have nothing to copy from these kites, I've presented here many much more advanced designs than any Pansh kite is 8)

foilholio
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Re: Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

Postby foilholio » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:06 pm

An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
In LEI's LE is part of the airfoil.
And a brick is an airfoil?!? You realize you kind of just admitted to the whole aerodynamic love obsession tube kite designers have with tubes.

An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
It is not just aerodynamics
Let me stop you there, structural properties are well understood by many and apparently you too. Compared to things that fly that's different, something to do with the amount of time we have been building things that fly vs building things in general, large ratio there 1:1000-1000000.
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
Of course I could make it better by increasing cell count
How is that going to make it better?
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
and perhaps having different airfoil
agreed make it thinner.
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
but then it wouldn't be same kite anymore
Amazing ! If you change something it's different!

An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
fix some not so good things (outdated) in line attachment points
No they seem pretty advanced and new to me. Give a picture of an old outdated kite that used similar positions, you can't.

An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
and in the bridle, perhaps adding canopy curve to make it more dynamic in flight... It isn't a race kite so why not make it a bit more fun to fly even if it loses perhaps 5-10% of PA?
You really really sound like a tubekite designer arguing against PA there.
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
It is ridiculous to think that by distorting kite/airfoil to higher camber by tweaking the mixer is comparable to having higher camber airfoil at the first place.
And there we have it the advanced concept of a shape changing kite is completely lost on you. Not so "expert" at all then.
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
Tweakings are not meant to make a kite
They are part of the process to make anything that is truly great.
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
I don't think I have nothing to copy from these kites
Instead of copying other kites you should develop your understand more so you have new and better ideas.
An "expert" wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 pm
, I've presented here many much more advanced designs than any Pansh kite is 8)
I doubt it , you have simply done some quick CAD work, in programs which are quite limited but easy to generate a finished model. These programs are limited by their own designers limited understanding. Your kites would need much more work to approach what you copy. The likes of Flysurfer have a wealth of unique knowledge hard worked for and tightly guarded.

kitexpert
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Re: Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

Postby kitexpert » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:18 pm

foilholio wrote:How is that going to make it better?
Don't you really know yet? Why Soul has more cells than Psychos, why race kites have constantly more and more cells, why Ozone Enzo has 101 cells? If you think 31 cells is some kind of ideal cell count you are wrong.
foilholio wrote: No they seem pretty advanced and new to me. Give a picture of an old outdated kite that used similar positions, you can't.
Because you don't know how more advanced bridle looks like, not even if I've just showed it to you. A15 is an outdated kite in that respect and besides of that the design of its bridle is clumsy.
foilholio wrote: advanced concept of a shape changing kite is completely lost on you.
You really think tweaking the bridle is an "advanced concept"? No, it is just trying to get not so good kites better by tinkering them - and having very uncertain results. Camber change during the bar movement is different thing, I know it very well and I've used it for over ten years in my kites.
foilholio wrote:I doubt it , you have simply done some quick CAD work
Nonsense. I'm fast because I know what I do. It is not only how to master the design program but to know how certain parameters should be and how they affect on kite in flight. This is the essential design knowledge which I've been collecting last 15 years, with tens of kites and hundreds of designs.

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Re: Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

Postby foilholio » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:20 pm

I know why they have more cells, I asked you why is that better? Inflatables have no cells are they worse for it? Minima has very low cells is it worse for it? SIngle skins have no complete cells are they worse for it?

Your problem is you have a limited view on things. Most likely a result of your riding style and education. You think you know the best way but what you really know is just one way. You are ignorant to anything outside your myopic view, that includes advanced bridles which you incorrectly label as not optimal or wrong. What is wrong and not optimal is your arithmetic. Failure to put 2 and 2 together and see why you lost that kite design job. It's staring you in the face or should I say typing in the face.

kitexpert
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Re: Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:54 pm

:) Inflatables or single skin don't need cells because of their structure. Instead they have panels and for them quite a lot same is true as it is with cell count for foil kites. More panels - more precise shape - less drag - higher L/D ratio - higher performance. Of course there is a limit after which adding panels is not productive like there is a limit with foil kite cell count for the same reason.

Minima would have better performance if it had higher cell count. If performance is main criteria limit for cell count is very high, for example Nova Phantom has 99 cells for about same AR as A15 has. Explanation is A15 is a cheap chinese kite, Phantom is high end PG which costs over ten times as much.

My views on kites are of course personal, but for some reason I prefer most advanced and best designed foil kites (FS) to cheap chinese ones :lol:

It is useless to continue this discussion about bridles, you foilholio just don't know what I am talking about.

foilholio
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Re: Pansh kites ...Anyone try them?

Postby foilholio » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:48 pm

I know exactly what you talk about, it is quite a simple concept your understanding. It seems the point I am trying to make is lost on you. Good luck in your design en devours you are going to need it.


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